Televangelist investigation: What is a church? Who is a minister? Should the tax man decide?

Have churches and their ministers pay taxes on their income just liek everyone else.

Does anyone really need a senate investigation to know these are scam artists? There's good money to be made selling snake oil to the rubes.

The government has absolutely no constitutional mandate or right to provide definitions of "a legitimate church."

The very idea is patently absurd and anti-American.

America IS a nation today because its founders fled the dictatorial English and European idea that the political rulers, in league with dominate church powers should be the final arbiter of this question.

Since the churches have brought these doubts about whether or not they are legitimate upon themselves, and since they are essentially social services masquerading as storytellers, tax them all as regular businesses. Those who are successful at show business can continue to flourish regardless of the taxes paid and those who are legitimate salvers of souls can exist on the beneficence of those whose souls are saved.

"The government has absolutely no constitutional mandate or right to provide definitions of "a legitimate church."
Ohh yes they do. Preaching matters of the faith and your belief system are NOT in question here, rather the deliberate avoidance of paying taxes. Churches dont get that benefit of the doubt any longer, especially with all these hucksters running amok.

So I guess I can just open my own "church" and start collecting donations (which I don't have to report to the IRS), deduct my house payments, etc. etc. Easy to see how this would be abused.

At a well known local big box church patronized by people who are well known in republican circles, a parishoner insisted on knowing how much his "pastor" was paid. When the big box churc refused to tell (citing privacy concerns), he started picketing the church!!! Finally the info, came out. The Pastor is paid approx $800K a year plus other perks.

It's time to end the free subsidy/no-tax status of the churches.

They have become political organizations.

What is a church? Who is a minister? What a laugh. ANYONE can claim god has told them that they are both. The religion scam is the greatest con in history.

From the televangelists line about the all powerful, all knowing Lord NEEDING YOUR MONEY to keep the televangelist living in luxury and to proselytize so as to expand the pool of suckers to fleece to the Roman Catholic Church and it's unimaginable wealth ocntrolled by the perverted mens club that is the priesthood to the Muslims convincing people to blow themselves up they are all about one thing, and that thing is controlling, even the most intimate aspects, the lives of their followers.

Religion = control. It's no accident they call their followers sheep.

What a joke. The religion business needs to be taxed and taxed now.

I get taxed, these churches should be taxes. I'll use the words from their own GOOD BOOK. "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Nothing Godly I see to many pastor getting rich. Do you think your Jesus would be flying around in his own jet plan. This ain't nothing but a hustle about fleecing the sheep (suckers). I say tax them. I have one more verse from the good book, "A sheppard is suppose to know his flock" 10,000 member churches???

If one examines the amount of untaxed U. S. real estate owned by the Roman Catholic Church - -
and the amount of untaxed money that flows into TV evangelists' coffers from ignoramuses - -

If Fair income and property taxes were levied against those parasites, there would be no National Debt.

Look into their political activities. Once you discover some, yank their tax-exempt status. And those of you who love to repeat the fantasy that this nation was founded as a religious haven are dreaming. In 1607 Jamestown was founded as a commercial enterprise. This nation is, and always will be a commercial enterprise. These "ministers" fleece their flocks, and prey on their inability to think for themselves.

Anybody who donates money to these showman, is a vote, authorizing their deferment of taxation. Politicians warm up to them, for their followers. They deserve each other.

@raymondharbin:

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything in the Constitution that states that churches are entitled to tax-exempt status - it specified in the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), meaning that its provisions were passed by Congress.

So if the government is going to confer tax-advantaged status on church organizations, I think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to ensure that their assets/income are consistent with church related activities (i.e. not frauds/scams) in exchange for said tax-advantaged status. If a church doesn't want such scrutiny, then they can forgo being tax exempt and still call themselves a church - but they'll have to play by the same rules as non-tax exempt entities.

It's hard to prove fraud when the promises 'televangelists' make accrue to dead people, i.e. eternal life, happiness in heaven, etc. And if folks want to pay good money for promises, that's their business. BUT why should the government treat one class of individuals (preachers) or one class of organizations (churches) differently than all the others. Let everyone pay their fair share. If the Deity wanted to subsidize his representatives on earth, He would have showered them with money directly from Above.

nothing in the bible says they shouldn't pay taxes on the contrary, render unto ceasar what is ceasars, and to god what is gods. mark 12:17

While Congress can't define what a church is, or what a minister is, Congress CAN take away the income tax exemption currently granted to churches and their priests/ministers/nuns/brothers, etc. They won't, but that would be an easier solution to the charlatans' taking advantage of the rest of us (by not paying their fair share of income taxes) then trying to define an entity as a "church" or an individual as a "minister". But, this country is so "religulous" these days that no change will occur, and the charlatans will continue to take advantage of the rest of us.

Someone should do a study on how much federal , state and local tax income would come from making all these religions taxable. It's probably a huge number and would solve a lot of problems. Love the picture of these fakes "laying hands" on old Oral Roberts. Looks like they are all hoping to get a piece of the action, and reminds me of the Sopranos!

As an ordained minister I am offended by those who call themselves "ministers", mainly to receive preferential treatment. I have never taken advantage of any tax breaks but I know of several people who have never attended a legitimate seminary but received their "diploma" in order to take advantage of these laws.No wonder any reasonably thinking person out there feels we are all just in this for the money.

Any thing they do that does not involve charity should be taxed. Multi million dollar mega churches are a scam and the rubes who give them money are the most easily conned fools I could ever imagine. If you like the entertainment, fine, I like the Beatles, do I claim they are like god? No.

It's time to call these "fraudulent fonies" what they really are: Cult leaders!! The raking in of funds from the gullible among us has been going, in the name of "religion" for centuries now. They need to be stopped, or at least taxed to the point where it's no longer worth their efforts.

Although I despise these rip-off artists just as much as anyone else, having the government involved in deciding what is or what isn’t a church is dangerous beyond belief and was spoken to DIRECTLY by the Founding Fathers and the Constitution. The Johnson tax code was overreaching as it is and was set in place for the purpose of controlling religion: it is Unconstitutional. You people get all hot and bothered when they stick their fingers in your holes at airports wait until they get involved in your religion.

The government has no real right to define who is or is not a church.

On the other hand, the government certainly does have the right to decide which churches qualify as a non-profit, and should use the same yardstick used for secular organizations.

Tax 'em. Next.

The majority of the people in America believe in the invisable big daddy in sky. They get the promise of everlasting life, they get to dump their guilt, they are told that they are loved and watched over by their god. They get simple answers to complex questions. They get comforted. It's like Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the people".
It is time the IRS taxed the snake oil salesman.

Senate: "Are you scamming the people who give you millions of dollars?"

Televangelists: "No."

Sentate: "OK."

HailaYEYOYa! ANSWER:

#1) A 'Church' Mosque... is art CORPorations whom have WORD MERCHANTS as Officers there of at/in.! AND

#2) ANY-Person or Group Can Become Clerics, Imams, Rabbi's, Priests, Ministers lala's aka "G-D(s)" Players! Licensed or Not. AND

PS: Anyone who claims to posses a PhD or a DR. in THEO (i.e., Doctor Of Rabbi-Jezues, the Xsrtian) is a Nut Case! That attainment (of God's) Is IMPOSSIBLE by any Standards; Human or Super{Natural!
___

So, Here's Somethin ON: The Solution To the "Church" I.R.S. Quagmire or Pollution in sweet sweet U.S.A. and Elsewhere.

Did YeYo forget the words "SURVIVAL of The Fittest?" and The "INVISIBLE Hand?." , the "MARKET-PLACE?" Ironically;

These Religious-Corporate {Business] Entity's who "Compete" (large, Medium, Small) All are in the BIZ of Hassling, Killing, Maiming each the Other Unjustly, while Perpetrating Human Wrongs against HUUMATE-RIGHTS. NO Exceptions! AND

Because 'CHURCH's (in America) are NOt restricted to "MONOPOLIZE-RELIGION" (CHURCH) by going "MEGA" (not Lotto), THEN

CHURC(s) In America should have a System called the "TiTHES for STOCK"S Exchange, Before the "FAITH EXCHANGE"s takes Place.
Praise The Holyi NO Mon/Womb!

ALL 'CHURCH's should 'MERGE' where in this case "BIG Is BETTER.". All CONGREGATION/ASPIRANTS can Invest, For SHARES backed-Up By That Assessed Market (Fair) Value of That Merged MEGA-MOSQUE/CHURCH/SINOGOGUE et al. AND

There can be a Reverse Mechanism (for 'Liquidity') Called "STOCK for TITHES" (Swap) where the Members Buy Back their respective Mega-Church's Common (or Even G-D Bonds instruments/vehicles ) A reasonable 'Return On Investment (ROI) On Owners Capital Loss's (Includes against Capital Gains). This way the Church Members, can Elect to Pay The Church or Pay Uncle-Sam and Aunt-Liberty.

CHURCH's Should Not Fear The-Market Place, To Survive. DEPENDENT, Sucking or Hiding Behind the I/R/S/ tax Free [A Privilege, NOt a RIGHT) to ENRICH themselves needs to End. There Time to think:

Think A-P-O-R-T-I-O-N-M-E-N-T! Please See:

EXCERPT: "a term used in law in a variety of senses. Sometimes it is employed roughly and has no technical meaning; this indicates the distribution of a benefit (e.g. salvage or damages under the Fatal Accidents Act 1846, § 2), or liability (e.g. general average contributions, or tithe rent-charge), or the incidence of a duty (e.g. obligations as to the maintenance of highways)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apportionment

Note: CHURCH's should Sell ESTATE INSURANCE (on The Equity/Value of their Physical Assets; NOt paper) To Each Other. And CHURCH's should Buy PEDOPHILE Insurance Or Create a "Pedophile-Pool" in the Future Event(s) when Peoples Memory's Fade into Mists.

CHURCH's can Even BE BANK's. CHURCH's Can SEll HEALTH Insurance to Each Other; WHY USE A MIDDLE-MAN (NOt Satan) to $ave, Help SAM&LIBERTY & in so many Possibilities only BE CREATIVE CHURCH's!

"IN 'IT' i[WE] Trust" Now.

One need not have an "investigation" concerning this - just turn on your TV (particularly on any Sunday) and see how these "businesses" with their "fully paid for" cathedrals are raking in the money from those who truly want to believe in "something".

It's about time these scam artists who prey on the pitiable FauxNews captives at least paid taxes on their trade. Half of them are big time political operators anyway. Why is this so hard for the authorities to figure out?

Every Church should pay taxes on profits.

If they aren't making a profit. Like any other organization they don't have anything to worry about.

I'm going to start a church. The Atheist's Church of Non Belief; Ministering to the needs of non believers in any god anywhere.

Rev. Whynotajoke, Minister of Non belief Gospel of non belief that I'll make up now:

I don;t believe in god, and people that do, that's fine, just don;t come to our church. We will drink scotch [Single malt] from large plastic cups as a sacrament, and not touch anyone under the age of 18 (Yes you Catholic priests, that includes boys of any age), nor anyone not wanting to be touched. We believe in the gospel of sitting around and maybe talking about the nothingness of being while imbibing our sacrament, and no guns will be allowed in our sanctuary. If you yell or raise you voice to a tone above a normal speaking voice, you will be excommunicated and your scotch [Single malt] will be poured either back into the bible, or poured into other member's cups. I will also make up other more nonsensical rules as I go along, but none that hurt anyone or anything for that matter. Water added to your scotch [Single malt] might be allowed under extreme circumstances, say Christopher Hitchens stops by and we want to set a good example, but ice is okay as long as it is dry ice. Please let me know if you want to join, member ship fees and basket to be passed mid-service to increase our stores of scotch [Single malt]. Ice [regular] may be added if some British Atheist happens to come by and like ice. See, I can be a good minister and I have a good gospel started right there.

Well, this is a serious response from so many that have thrown these ministers under the guilty status with no facts!!!
Why should these ministers not make a living preaching the gospel?? The bible says that those who preach the gospel shall live by it for their material needs. Yes also desires. Ministers aren't under some sort of obligation to live below poverty level or even close to it. God IS A PROSPERING GOD.
He has no problem giving finance to whom HE chooses to give the power to obtain wealth.
Now... Should they live extravagantly off of the congregations monies that are donated. No I don't think so but many of these ministers live a nice life because of their book and cd sales!!!!!!
Believe me they earn their money!!!!!!!!!!
They work 24hrs a day!!!!!
The ones that are taking advantage of people to an abusive state.... God will deal with them but these ministers aren't all out to get your money. They love God and have been pulled out of life's pit and placed in a position to preach the GOOD NEWS~ that has changed their lives and I testify for myself.... Their ministries have been a huge help to my getting out of a pit and knowing God's word, the truth of God's word.
Say you were stranded somewhere with no way out but two men showed up and one had been through this before and found the way out and wanted to help but then you also had a man there who read about how to get out but hadn't actually ever went to actually find the way out physically...
Would you want the man who knew because he experienced it himself (of coarse according to the directions) or the one who only knew how to get out of the pit because he read it only?
I would think you would follow the one who actually already knew the way out and had accomplished it before. So as for no seminary ministers... That's mostly a better thing. I'd rather the one that has experienced Christ and His power through the word of God teach me than the one that just has read about it!!!!!!!!! Come on!! We need to meet Christ on a personal basis. A real relationship. Not only a knowledge of Him. That won't save you!
Stop passing judgment on these men and women that are the Lords. Find out the facts and I mean facts FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as paying taxes.... church is separated from state!!!!!!!!!!!! What's good for one has to be good for the other!!
All religious organizations,all charities,scientific research and many more organizations would have to come under the same rule!!!!

What? I am as serious as a felonious pedophile priest! They live for god by touching little boys.

My church would not harm and children. As a matter of fact I am adding to my Gospel the following: Though shalt not drive drunk, of with a drunk. Thou shalt not let anyone else drive drunk. Though shall let a pedophile priest [or any pedophile for that matter] drive drunk in the trunk of a police cruiser on a very bumpy road. A laying on the hands of the pedophile may be done only if the police officer allows it by turning his dashboard camera off for the laying on of the hands...or whatever is nearby. I realize this is a direct violation of my first book of revelations from an earlier post, but I saw that this was good.

Well, this is a serious response from so many that have thrown these ministers under the guilty status with no facts!!!
Why should these ministers not make a living preaching the gospel?? The bible says that those who preach the gospel shall live by it for their material needs. Yes also desires. Ministers aren't under some sort of obligation to live below poverty level or even close to it. God IS A PROSPERING GOD.
He has no problem giving finance to whom HE chooses to give the power to obtain wealth.
Now... Should they live extravagantly off of the congregations monies that are donated. No I don't think so but many of these ministers live a nice life because of their book and cd sales!!!!!!
Believe me they earn their money!!!!!!!!!!
They work 24hrs a day!!!!!
The ones that are taking advantage of people to an abusive state.... God will deal with them but these ministers aren't all out to get your money. They love God and have been pulled out of life's pit and placed in a position to preach the GOOD NEWS~ that has changed their lives and I testify for myself.... Their ministries have been a huge help to my getting out of a pit and knowing God's word, the truth of God's word.
Say you were stranded somewhere with no way out but two men showed up and one had been through this before and found the way out and wanted to help but then you also had a man there who read about how to get out but hadn't actually ever went to actually find the way out physically...
Would you want the man who knew because he experienced it himself (of coarse according to the directions) or the one who only knew how to get out of the pit because he read it only?
I would think you would follow the one who actually already knew the way out and had accomplished it before. So as for no seminary ministers... That's mostly a better thing. I'd rather the one that has experienced Christ and His power through the word of God teach me than the one that just has read about it!!!!!!!!! Come on!! We need to meet Christ on a personal basis. A real relationship. Not only a knowledge of Him. That won't save you!
Stop passing judgment on these men and women that are the Lords. Find out the facts and I mean facts FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as paying taxes.... church is separated from state!!!!!!!!!!!! What's good for one has to be good for the other!!
All religious organizations,all charities,scientific research and many more organizations would have to come under the same rule!!!!

lifeforhimm:

Are you a broken record or one-trick pony? Have you nothing to say? Does god hate you? Have you been touched by the hand of god?

Catholic priest should be allowed to marry. God never ever said not to marry if you are a minister.
That is a freedom in the scriptures as to your own choosing.
This is a grievous man-made requirement!
It is also okay to not marry!
It's in the word of God~!

Whynotajoke:

What is your story?? Why are you so angry at God????????
God doesn't disappoint...Only people and yes there is a devil.....

Whynotajoke:

God did touch my life. He also healed my husband instantly off of his death bed...
during a prayer for my husband's healing.
Jesus is who He said He was. I have had so many miracles from walking with the Lord.
He loves you and is always one prayer away!!
I only can say this because I have experienced it. For real. Why would I even bother to say it....
Jesus loves YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He wants to take you and bless your life with the truth and fill you with so much of life you will run with excitement.
If seeing is believing than just look up tonight and count the stars.
Breath on mirror and look at your breath. You didn't make either yet you arrogantly claim there is no God!!!!!!!!!!!People are born everyday and die and yet you have no control over either but you believe God didn't make us????
Your finger print is original and unique to only belonging to your identity and you don't believe you have been individually created especially by the hands of God???
God made you with a plan a great plan in mind. You just won't get to know what that is if you don't reach out and ask Him.
He loves you He is only one step away from finding out.

If these so called Churches took the money they acquire... and do some true good with it... such as donations to the poor... then I would say absolutely they should be exempt.... but now we all know that this isnt the case. These Tele-evangelists are lining their own pockets... houses.. cars... bank accounts. The true churches... that are worth their weight... could certainly withstand an investigation as to their finances... Iam sure.

church = scam

I guess the Benny Hinners accept that their god discriminates against ol' Benny healing amputees, eh? whywontgodhealamputees.com

Like the atheist billboards say, "...scam ..."

Oh yeah, the comments of the religious miracle heal claims -- check out the news from around the world the day of the healing. Bet you'll find ol' godly doing more damage that repair. Like 1500 newborn mothers and 20,000 kids under the age of five dying EACH DAY in 3rd world countries, for one (see UNICEF stats)

It has been reported that Congress and its staffers own $35 million in back taxes. Ron Dellums, ex mayor of Oakland CA owes several hundred thousand with no payment date in sight.

I suggest the members first investigate themselves, identify who refuses to pay their taxes and why.

Well this opened quite a bee hive for all to see.

But expect no comment and no action from Congress, less THEIR 'ministries' become known to all.

There is a final accounting coming.

There is a Minister in the Washington Metro area who has a congregation of well over 10 thousand who has never taken a salary from the church(member's find this inspiring for some reason). However he does take a "love offering" at every service that goes to his remuneration. Think of it for a moment 10,000 member's at let's say $2 a piece every Sunday. That's roughly $80,000 a month & $960,000 a yr. What a racket! even if only half of the congregation comes at any one time we're talking about $10,000 a week. TAX FREE!!!!!

This is one of the oldest con games going.
It has nothing to do with loving god it has to do with human greediness, using gullible people to finance a comfy lifestyle. It is also about power over these needy, gullible people who need someone else to 'give them god', so to speak.
In today's world of the US needing more tax money, religion, a huge business, goes tax free. Amazing that so many out here defend that. Amazing.

lifeforhimm:

Angry at who? I'm not angry with anyone.
If you think a magical thing healed your husband from his death bed, good on you. I am in fact happy for you, but I submit your husband was not on his deathbed because it assumes your husband had already died, thus the term 'deathbed'. Your husband did not die, therefore he was not on his deathbed unless in fact he did die at some later point on that same bed in which case it would in fact be his deathbed. If in fact he did die, my sincerest condolences.

lifeforhimm:

You said:
Your finger print is original and unique to only belonging to your identity and you don't believe you have been individually created especially by the hands of God???

If what you say is true, and let's assume for a minute that it is. Then your god created was, disease, the stuff that comes out of you butt hole, out of your nose, out of your pp hole, rats, malaria, anemia, cancer, dengue fever, warts, to name a few. What kind of a perfect being does such shoddy work? When you get that magic pimple on the tip of your nose, the one that hurts so bad but you cant pop it because it is so deep, do you thank god for this? Did you thank god for the reverend Fred Phelps from the Westboro Baptist Church? If what you hold is true, than what I said that follows is true and gospel.

THE TAX EXEMPT LAW MUST BE REPEALED! THE LAW IS OUT DATED FOR OUR ECONOMIC TIMES AS WELL AS BEING VIOLATED BY THOSE THAT SPEAK OUT POLITICS AND TURN AROUND AND CLAIM TAX EXEMPT. WHY SHOULD THESE GROUPS HAVE IT ALL THEIR WAY?

What a bunch of idiots that follow and enrich these ministers. At least is their money that is creating and maintening millionares. In the name of God everything is possible.

Churches should pay taxes. I'd be willing to consider a hybrid system that allows for some exemptions (i.e. below designated income thresholds) or exclusions of money spent directly on some public service or program as long as those programs file detailed tax returns. Ministers should definately be paying taxes on all income they receive.

If you want to tax churches then you should tax ALL tax exempt organizations and non-profits. Why are they given tax exemptions??

@JKDOORS - You do know Jamestown was a commercial failure...right? Your truth is no more accurate. If Jamestown had been successful we would still be a part of the British empire. Many more individuals/families/group did start coming to this country fleeing religious persecution. That is not a fantasy moron, that too is a fact. Another fact, many of those fleeing religious persecution were enterprising, hardworking individuals who thrived in a country where an individual was not beholden to an aristocracy. Maybe you should retake your history courses.

They're making their money from talking about magic dead guys, it's sort of all downhill after that.

Posted by: kalamere "If you want to tax churches then you should tax ALL tax exempt organizations and non-profits. Why are they given tax exemptions??"
-------------------------------
Ever heard about the ANimal Welfare League threatening to take a Senators puppy away if he voted a certain way? Nope, never.

But how many times have we heard about churches threatening to not give communion to Senators for leaning a certain way on a vote? If they continue to stick their nose into the government, then the government should stick their's in right back. The Catholic "Counsel of Bishops" is nothing more than a lobby in a purple dress.

Generally speaking I like to see religions fade away into obscurity by their complete irrelevance rather than be forced out by their own perfidies, that force being executed by civil authorities.

To be consistent in my desire for freedom from religion, I have to say I don't like the idea of civil authority having anything to do with these churches.

Sure, these churches are likely making suckers out of the believers, but remember who we're talking about here -- believers. They are already suckers.

As long as these people aren't hurting anyone else, the hucksters or the suckers, leave them alone.

My revered grandfather - a lovable rogue - said this a long time ago: "If you want to make some really big money, start your own church." Amen to that, gramps! And, as many know, the government [no matter the leve] will maintain a strictly hands-off policy for fear of: [1]having the 1st Amendment thrown into their faces; [2] losing the votes of the millions of bible thumpers; [3] being labeled surrogates for Satan; [4] being called the anti-Christ.
Churches - no matter the denomination - are nothing more than monuments to super-
stition.

Does anyone want to join my church???

I, yes me, I have god's secret email address, only known to a chosen few. You're going to hear lots of noise from your favorite ministers, preachers, hucksters and so forth, how they have the direct line.

But only I have this secret email address.

Send me twenty ... no thirty .. no, your life savings, and I CAN MAKE YOU HARD forever ... and I'll tell god what a great person you are and how he'd be a real putz not to let you through the pearly gates, or have the 40 virgins, or whatever

EEZMAMATA: I am calling you out as a fraud because you can only get to the bottle, er I mean god, through me! No email will do, but you can make a donation to help fund the scotch. [Single malt.]

Only the elimination of all conservative Christians will allow all Americans to be free and the world to no longer have to live in fear of the U.S.A.'s imperialist, terrorist holy war. The conservative ideology has never helped mankind in any way, it has not only never helped mankind in anyway, it has oppressed, murdered, raped and killed all those in it's way to gain power. History shows us this. Fact shows us this. James Madison, the "Father of the U.S. Constitution", along with many founders of this country, regardless of their religious or non-religious affiliations, knew keeping politics and religion separate not only preserves each, but helps them flourish: "The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church and the State.