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Chinese Nationalism Threatens Beijing

Just how scary is Chinese nationalism? Just how serious are the thousands of Chinese about boycotting Carrefour - France's version of a big box store with more than 100 outlets in China?

On May 8, 1999, hours after US missiles slammed into the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia, I was out on the streets of Beijing near the US embassy as a line of buses disgorged hundreds, if not thousands of students. A Chinese researcher rode up to me on his bike. It's the Boxers, he said, referring to the anti-foreign Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the 20th century. The Boxers killed their share of foreigners and believed that bodies hardened by lotsa kung-fu fighting could stop bullets. I laughed. Then a brick whizzed past my head.

Still, I've never really been able to take China nationalism that seriously. It's like some of the comments on my blog. There's no shortage of passion but it's also curiously skin deep. It's often a foil for anti-government feelings, employed by Chinese who are actually fed up with Communist Party rule but aren't allowed to say it. Finally, it often masks deeper divisions in Chinese society. Whenever I read a Chinese blogger urging an anti-foreign boycott or some other type of joint action, I'm reminded of the telling saying that Chinese have about themselves. "A Chinese alone equals the power of a dragon, but three Chinese, nothing but an insect."

Militant nationalism is a loaded term; it raises the specter of 1930s Germany and Japan. Scholars and pundits on all sides of the political divide in America like to toss it around when speaking about China. On the panda hugging side of the aisle, they invoke "militant nationalism" when they argue that we shouldn't be tough on China. "Don't push those Chinese because they might get ultra-nationalist on you," they warn, taking their talking points almost directly from friends in China's party-state. The right, too, loves to fan the flames of our fears. China's ultra-nationalists are coming, it warns, so we need to bolster our military forces, arm Taiwan, harden Guam, snuggle up even closer to Japan.... Both lines of reasoning are flawed, I think. Here's why.

First, a healthy percentage of China's nationalists are basically patriots. (See what a difference a word makes?) These include the many thousands of Chinese studying at US campuses who have in recent weeks protested against Tibet, against the Dalai Lama and against people protesting against Tibet. Sure, their style is a little bizarre and they are unusually thin-skinned but cut them some slack. China is a new arrival on the global scene; most of these hotheads have never protested before; at the same time they are obsessed with "face" and are quick to take offense at perceived foreign depredations. You would, too, if you received a Communist education with your mother's milk. These people expect a kow-tow or two. Too bad they're not going to get them.

The most interesting group are the nationalists inside China. There, nationalism is an anti-government movement using the cloak of patriotism as a flak jacket against government attacks.

To be sure, China's government ginned up nationalism in the years following the Tiananmen Square crackdown with its various "Patriotic Education Campaigns" and its relentlessly anti-Western media campaigns. Nationalism was a natural safe-harbor for the party. With Communist ideology dead, the party turned to nationalism - and that big old growth rate - as the foundations of its legitimacy.
But by sanctioning nationalism and nationalist demonstrations, China's party-state has created a potent potential enemy.

I'll use a story to illustrate this. In 1988, I was in Nanjing covering massive protests that were touched off by a fight between African and Chinese students over a woman. The first day of the protest was an ugly racist march against what the Chinese called "black devils" stealing "our women." On the second day, however, somebody shouted "we want freedom!" and the whole tenor switched on a dime. Out came the placards calling for political change and, I might add, better food in the campus cafeterias. The same could easily happen around Carrefour stores today. It's all anti-French until the moment it isn't. Then it'll be anti-CCP.

China's nationalist movement has already broached the question of whether the current government is sufficiently standing up for China - because of its slow response in Lhasa against marauding Tibetan rioters; that's just one step away from the broader question of whether the current government possesses the legitimacy to rule China.

So to answer the question up top. China's nationalism doesn't scare me and shouldn't scare the West, even though it may cost Carrefour a few customers. But it definitely should scare the Mandarins in Beijing.

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Comments (142)

david:

there is something choked my throat all these days which i have to remove them ,making me feel released if i spoke threm out.i heared a news recently,it is reported that in a primary school in a certain province,forgot it's name,a student was criticized by his teacher for not finishing his homework,a very common and a tiny thing to a school.the next day,the kid's father broke into the classroom with his kid,dragging the teacher by the collar while he is lecturing out of the classroom,slapping him twice and shouting to him,do you know who i am, i tell you,i'm a police officer,how dare you bully my son.and it is reported later,the local authority had done nothing to do with the police.the news made me learn more .
first,this is not the first time for the news i ever heard about.and the father is not the first police who slapped or even heavily tortured a teacher in china.and the most jokingly,any punishment was eventually given to the police.why?cause quotaing the police as saying,i have the man in superior levels,who dare do anything to me?i don't what the other persons' responding to the news,for my part,i feel what a great sham for me as a chinese!and i felt how ugly chinese is!i don't know any police in the rest of the world who is so courgeous to speak out that words except in china.who gave you the right to do that?
second,the cpc awalys teaches its party member that a party member shall serve the people who they said who brought them up,even Deng xiaoping once said that he was the son of chinese people,but actually many cardes in china thought themselves as the father of the people.and just cause they have anybody in superior levels,they can be freed not as the common persons who did wrong things or even broke the law.i hope cardes in high levels can pay great attention to such things,after all human rights in china exsisting so much bad things.

fppissht:

@Maryhelen P.:

Chinese Teacher Fan Meizhong, blogging about running out of the classroom and abandoning his students during the recent earthquake,this Runner Fan himself said 'I do not believe in sacrificing myself for another person. In such a life-and-death moment, the only person I would consider sacrificing myself for would be my daughter. I would not care about other people, including my mother, under such circumstances...In short..I do not have the least amount of moral guilt ...I have been engulfed in sadness that I was not born in a country like the United States, a country which respects freedom, democracy, and human rights! ...I don’t read the writings of the vast majority of Chinese writers and thinkers, and instead focus on American and European writers.'

It seemed for Fan Meizhong,the ugly shameless self-centered coward, that he could find unlimited freedom for selfishness in the west.

Maryhelen P.:

I like your first winner - but remember, it's just like the blaming of Katrina on New Orleans' decadence.

My nomination for the next one:

"I have a very strong sense of self-preservation. I have never been a brave man and I'm only really concerned about myself."

Chinese teacher Fan Meizhong, blogging about running out of the classroom and abandoning his students during the recent earthquake.

Ronald:

There is a race riot raging in South Africa, the shinning example of liberal democracy on that continent. I am just wondering how long would it take for Mr. Pomfret to blame that riot on Chinese government and call for a boycott of Olympic. Come to think. Who cares who is coming or who is not coming. The Chinese people should be about enough with this kind of stupidity.

TianRi:

Posted on May 7, 2008 03:13

@lucidus:

If a nation can be said to be based on ethnic group, then China has been one for a very long time. "Chinese" are not all Hans (Han is like the term for "TRUE/REAL Chinese").

BUT, 92% of all Chinese call themselves HAN, including many descendants of Mongols, Manchus, etc. If you want language unity, 81% of all Chinese, or 88% of all Hans, speak Mandarin as their first language at home.

Within the Hans, there is no discernible division - they are one ethnic group, with almost one language, as the numbers show.

It seems quite a natural nation-state to me, even though I only lived there for one year. BTW, the above was my name there; I am American.

Mat:

Having seen their dollar reserves almost cut in half by the sinking value of the dollar I would not be surprized if they nationalized foreign assets after the olympics.

lucidus:

@justsomelaowai:
I think what CJ means in "China is a civilization pretending to be a country." is that China is not a "nation states" in the sense as traditionally defined by modern European countries.Most Chinese identify themselves first as Chinese, then as whatever ethnic groups they are in ,while it is usually the other way around in European "nation state" in which ethnics border define national border. "Identifying as Chinese" means accepting the Chinese value system, which includes two major points: incrementalism(which avoids radical revolution)and concept of universality( which translates to internal unification politically). Thus the recent confrontation between China and west is more like clash in value system.

Wangchuk:

Chinese ultra-nationalists today remind me of pre-1945 Japanese nationalists. Both thought their country was a rising power & thought the West was trying to contain that power. Both looked down upon foreigners, including other Asians (Yes, Chinese do consider Tibetans to be foreign barbarians no matter what their propaganda says). Both can become violent when faced w/ critics of their regimes/empires. Both thought their country is the center of Asia & even the world. Both thought their country had a manifest destiny to be major power & critics were either lying or just jealous. And both thought their empire was a benevolent ruler in their colonies (Korea & Taiwan to Japan; Tibet & E. Turkestan to China), while either ignorant or lying about atrocities committed in those colonies. Japan's militant nationalists were defeated in WWII. Let's hope China's ultra-nationlists don't lead us down the path of war.

Lived In China:

Wow, there's a great big "didn't think of that" lurking around in this article.

Westerners tend to rather blithely assume that anyone who is against an anti-Western government is for them, that anything that comes after the CCP would inevitably be better.

What unnerves people, including me, is that the underground national sentiment in China is not pro-Western, pro-engagement, or pro-responsible stakeholder, but even more radical, even more confrontational that the government we're currently dealing with.

Like many people I know, I was fervently opposed to the Chinese Government BEFORE I went to China. The difference between the CCP and the nationalist nutters that are clogging up the internet is that the CCP, at least, knows that what its peddling is crap. Talk to anyone you meet on the street, and its like taking a time warp back to the 19th century.

justsomelaowai:

@CJ: "To paraphrase Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations, "China is a civilization pretending to be a country." For any potential critics, I've been living in China for 4 years, earned a master's from Beijing University, and speak Mandarin (Putonghua) fluently. I'm also an American."

This is what I don't get: if the Chinese try to form a nation, then they are called "chauvinists" and "racists" (how DARE they teach Chinese to Uyghur and Tibetan children)!--and if they don't, then they are ridiculed as a "culture pretending to be a country." My credentials don't match up with CJ's, as I only studied ancient Chinese history at UCLA many years ago, and my knowledge of the Chinese language is very limited, so perhaps a Chinese or a "China-expert" can help me out here. BTW, I'm an American too, who wishes the Chinese only the best in building their nation.

Anonymous:

Nationalism is a form of national loyalty where people speak with one voice. No other view is tolerated.

German nationalism resulted In WWII.
Did any German dare to speak out against Hitler?

See what happened to Hu Jia, Grace Wang, and others.

SIMPLE TRUTH:

NO people on this planet will be against their government if the government can lead a 30 years long double digit economical growth. Even if the government had a bad history, but which country's government has no bad history? As long as the government is doing almost right thing currently, people will forgive the past.

Anonymous:

@Taste of DC:
"
The funny thing is that while the Chinese blogging on our boards have no power to effect change in their communities… The American people typically blogging on the Washington Posts website typically are the same ones that create policies and CAN effect GLOBAL change with a couple hours work.
"

Some Chinese people comment on this board because this board is in English. The chinese community mostly speak and blog in chinese. Unless you know the language you won't be able to see if those comments/blogs are also world-changing. (Of course, that also depends on the size of the WORLD one perceives, and the knowledge of the person who draw the conclusion)


pointsTaken:

stop fanning:
You points are taken. But Please note that Chinese don't go day after day bashing US government and pressing US troops to withdraw from Iraq immediately. So if US don't act like world police that believe it holds higher moral ground than other countries, you won't see those comments here.

Anonymous:

Having a debate between pro-Chinese and anti-Chinese is like having a debate between Muslims and Christians.

Noone is able to convert the other.

Taste of DC:

The funny thing is that while the Chinese blogging on our boards have no power to effect change in their communities… The American people typically blogging on the Washington Posts website typically are the same ones that create policies and CAN effect GLOBAL change with a couple hours work.

Do you think you are hurting or helping your fellow countrymen at this point by continuing to post the same things over and over and over again? Even your own Government has decided to respond in a positive way towards the west… Perhaps you didn’t get the memo.

Anti-bigotry:

Well said, Bubba. And I think that's the main point many Chinese have been trying to make all along. So perhaps it's time to tell your fellow Americans to get off their high horses and stop pointing fingers at others for doing the same thing. After all, as you said, nationalism (and many other things) "is human nature (and) we all do it".

Whocares:

I seldom read such discussion. To me, it is almost meaningless. 80% of the people who have negative statements about China have never been to China at all. They know very little from CNN or BBC, which was distorted already. The Chinese people here have been in US for many years and most of them obtained US Master or Ph.D. degrees. They have been living here for many years and they can see both sides at least. I believe this group of people know China and USA better than most Americans here. How many Americans have master or Ph.D. degrees obtained from China? How long have you guys been there? Do you know the history of Tibet? Since you do not agree Tibet is a part of China, what Country issued the visa for you to enter Tibet? What county issued the passport for Tibetan? USA? Why a third-party cares too much about other people's business? Do you want to experience the violence in Tibet by yourself? Do those innocent people died in Chicago a week ago have any human rights? Were those gangs expressing their angry about your so-proud of society? Do your own businee! Americans are not angels of peace from the haven. Most of the time they raise the flag of human rights or democracy with their bombs on their back!!! That's history.

stop fanning:

ANTI-BIGOTRY:
If you take my comment as begin defensive so be it. I was only making a point that you expect to be treated by Americans on American blogs as your fellow Chinese treat you on your Chinese boards…

If I went onto a Chinese site and began blogging in total opposition to the masses day after day, don’t you think I would have already had a death threat or two by now? Has that happened to you yet for blogging your opinions here? Has your family been arrested? Your livelihood threatened? I don’t think so.

Take note of the difference and you tell me what society is more barbaric and in need of an attitude adjustment.

BRAMBLES:

@ Grammar police:

I totally agree with you on that "History is always narrated by someone".
But are you saying there's no fact, but narration of history by SOMEONE?
I happen to disagree.

In "fact", I didnt say Mr. Pomfret is completely ignoring facts but that he could do much better if he pays more attention to the substantiation of "facts", because he's now read by many of my people besides Americans. A typical Chinese reading his blog would react to the mistakes by a sigh and smile: these westerns indeed know nothing but China.

An example:
Mr. Pomfret said in an earlier article that Hu (the president of PRC) comes to power in "2001".
That's plainly wrong. Dont you think that's "FACTUALLY" wrong?
Many readers including me have pointed that out days ago. Mr. Pomfret never corrected the error.
So, to the point I m trying to get across, a typical Chinese reader would be amused and his "bias" toward "western media" would be strengthed.


I dont want to see that. I m not getting paid to do this.

John Lee:

Do you know what are you saying, dear author? You have used your value to replace others',just like USA using its thinking way to replace other countries'. From your words, we can see that you are favor yourself very much, you think you know everything, and what you think always is right,just in your mind. THE USA is playing an important role in the world ,because he is the WORLD POLICE. However, this is NOT what other countries want. Where is other countries' freedom?

Grammar police:

Brambles, you and others would do well to use "observation" in place of "fact." By saying 'fact' you are precluding anyone else from access to the truth. History is always narrated by someone, and that someone casts themselves into it, affecting it. When you narrate history, you voice yourself as well.

BRAMBLES:

Mr. Pomfret,

I know you wrote a book on China issues. Compared to most of your readers you know China much much better.
But as a POST correspondent writing a blog affiliated with the POST, I reiterate, you are expected to hold a much higher standard than typical Internet bloggers.
You should at least be a little bit more professional in organizing and substantiating the facts referenced in your article before jumping to conclusions.

A small suggestion: would you please at least acknowledge the many egregious mistakes (factual) in the 4 -5 articles you publish so far and make some corrections?
So many readers have pointed them out for you and you didnt seem to care about the twist of facts.

Again, it's the POST's credibility at stake here. Not just yours.

How much would an ordinary Chinese expect from "western medias", now that a famed correspondent from the well respected POST would so blatantly ignore even basic facts regarding China and then so blithely put forward "theories" that many of us found so "impossible"?

Please do some homework first. I hope one day you could be a real China expert.

BRAMBLES:

Watching people posting here is sometimes amusing but most of the times agonizing.
I dont know the mutual rejection would affect our lives how much but it wont be in a good way. But that's stupid, in that the antagonism is not even remotely justified and it does nothing besides exhausting resources that could've been used for sth with real value.

I didnt give a damn about the Chinese government's bid for the Olympics. I thought it amounts to nothing but an empty gesture of showing good faces. Now I totally support the event.

If the expected 1.5 million tourists to China this summer wont make a change, I'd say China should host more, bigger international events.

Anyone here with doubts to our postings here, you are welcome to China.

Come and See. That's the only thing we can communicate to you.

Reasonning alone is futile. I thought I was old enough to understand that.

COME AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

Bubba:

I spent part of my youth in Asia but now live in the US. I went to PRC twice in the 1980's before Tiananmen. I recall seeing far more nationalism and pride at that time in Japan than anywhere else in Asia. This was of course when Japan was the great economic fear with their electronics and cars.

When I lived in South America in the 90's several Peruvians tried to persuade me, with great passion and pride, that Coca-Cola was invented in Lima. Last summer in Johannesburg a few South Africans, beaming with confidence, tried to convince me South Africa invented the idea of the national park.

In order for a people to succeed they need a history. I think most are prone to revising theirs to seem a bit rosier. Perhaps this is an effort to persuade themselves their future will too: American, Chinese, Japanese, Peruvian... I think this is human nature. We all do it.

Anti-bigotry:

Hey Bubba, you see how defensive STOP FANNING is getting there? "It's OUR (AMERICAN) message board. Stop posting opinions against ours..."

BTW, to answer your question, STOP FANNING, of why so many Chinese immigrate here. They come here for the same reason that 99.9% of all immigrants come here: money. People go where the money is and that's the number one priority. I know you'd rather see them only letting in immigrants holding the same ideology as yours, (and perhaps even the same skin tone as yours?), but then it would make the American claim of tolerance and diversity a total hypocricy, wouldn't it?

Anti-bigotry:

To Bubba: the bitter tones of many of the anti-China posters here also verifies the point of the Chinese, don't ya' think? And you should see how defensive many Americans get when they hear foreigners criticizing the US gov't.

To KT: it seems that your mind has already been made up, but I just want to point out one example. You mentioned that 1959 was a long time ago and thus CIA's intentions back then is irrelevant. Yet you are fascinated by the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, one of which happened prior to 1959, the other > 30 years ago. China is a whole different world today from those days, just like the US now is totally different from its segregation years. I think this example is a nice little illustration of the double standards employed by many China-criticizers and so despised by most Chinese.

Stop Fanning:

The funny thing is every single son or daughter of an immigrant Chinese that I have ever met have all viewed their own parents as the ones with the overbearing sense of Chinese pride. And their parents were their primary influence growing up.

But as they all tell me; the more their parents imposed the Chinese thinking onto them, the more they felt closed off from the rest of society. The more they experienced our culture, the more they embraced it. Not because we were evil, but because it finally gave them a chance to be individuals.

Now if our culture, media, world actions and overall sense of what’s proper in this world is so bad, why do you even immigrate here? Why do you go to our Universities? Why do you work here? Why do you stay here? Why Why Why?

We understand the Chinese culture to save “face” above doing the right thing, but come on. This is getting retarded. If you can’t manage to understand our intentions when we post things online on AMERICAN boards, other than trying to interfere with your country, you shouldn’t even be trying to reason with us since it makes you come off sounding just like the PLA days of old.

As such, especially in DC where people make and break entire countries within a span of 10-20 years (including China), you should think twice before continuing to fan the flames due to ignorance of the vast differences in the way we view partnerships in business.

Yes our business comes with conditions. That being that you adhere to the same decency standards as the rest of the major nations on earth.

But I suppose this is all a foregone conclusion at this point now that your government has been imposing tougher restrictions on standards in your country. With enforced standards comes the lesson of earning respect and learning how to properly balance the costs of a nation. Soon it will be more costly to do business in China because of the added assurances in which case we will simply move on to another in hopes that China’s leadership continues to better the nation as a whole and is able to sustain itself properly into the 22nd century (unlike the last 1000 years).

While you’re at it, would you feed North Korea for the world since you seem so in tune with that region? I think Americans giving attitudes are quickly waning….Especially since they like to paint over the flags on the bags of rice.

HaHa:

I'm an average people from a small town in China. what I felt is our living standard has improved much during the past 20 years although we still have much weakness in our system. It's imporssible to lead 1.3 billlion people to rich life overnight.

To haha:

No, u don't speak for 1.3 billion people.

Are u an English-speaking Chinese posting from behind that Great Firewall of China?

haha:

It's so pity that so many chinese clearify the truth,but still many others can't believe . It's so ridiculous that they prefer trusting Daliar to trusting 1.3 billion people. their intention is so apparent.So I think it's no need to argue it any more with those fools

God will hate liar:

who surpressed minorities? China?
it's a pity that the westerner r fooled by their media,it's not the faults of foreigners,but the media.
I knew our government built the first railway for us,give us many priorities,including the opportunities for education, they invest much for our ecomomic development. our military saved many tibetan who r injured and hurt by Daliars group.Daliar is a truly liar.

Suzanne:

Seems to me that the Chinese will eventually have to take a look at whats happening right in front of them at home--they certainly have their fill of problems like any other country, unless they happen to like inflation, and large amounts of farmland being taken over for their urban growth, pollution of the worst unchecked kind, and the ever growing division between poor and rich. HOWEVER, we can talk about these things freely in the U.S; I would not feel free to criticize in China, I would certainly feel and BE threatened. The Chinese government is still a dictatorship, just now they happen to embracing the money while suppressing the individual.
I lived in Asia, I have some experience with the culture, and I really thought Bejing was an extremely poor choice for the Olympics. But since its there, I would still root for just about any other countries' athletes to beat the Chinese on their home turf, not unlike the 1936 Olympics in Nazi Germany.

AZ:

What I feel this time is the westerns are really poor salesman --

They sale the 'human right'; And, they humiliate the customer when the customer don't want buy, or thinking to buy

Therefore, I think Chinese people now don't buy that anymore. That stuff definition changes from time to time, place to place.

The customer is gone. Sorry.

Bubba:

All the defensively toned comments by reportedly Chinese posters kind of proves this column right, eh?

ting_m_1999:

You are wrong in saying that Chinese Nationalism threatens Beijing. Since you know Chinese history, you should know that it is Chinese nationalism that propels China to its present achievements, not threatens it to collapse. I hope you understand. On the contrary, it is the provocation by the anti-China axis of evil that threatens the foundation of the Western political system of democracy, freedom,rule of law, human rights and law and order turning those lofty ideals into symbols of imperialism, prejudices, torture, untruths, inhuman practices, any qualities of goon and thug, even after 2000 years of immersion in Christian religion of love and forgiving.

tom:

whatever other conclusions we draw from these comments, I think we can safely assume that no one knows what happened in Nanjing in 1988.

Bai Xing:

This is a nice article and very interesting to read for me, as a Chinese. I just want to comment on a few things the author may want to check.

1) There was not a women involved in 1987 event and I have not seen anything saying about a woman in the protests. There was some Chinese students got beaten up and the criminals, some offspring of African official was let go without charges, which angers many Students. This is not the kind of racism we experienced here in the US, where lynching and noose was the norm.

2) The so called "hotheads" you mentioned are not really as hot as you described. Yes, many of the students never demonstrated before, but none of them, tens of thousands all over the world, has involved in any kind of violent or uncivil activity.

3) The reason many Chinese Americans got involved in protesting the biased coverage is because almost all of us experience racism first hand. (If you do not believe it, just check this thread and you will find many racism charged comments). The wide spread racism against Asian/Chinese in this country has never been addressed seriously. This effectively pushed many Chinese to the side of the Chinese government.

4) In China, people hold very positive view of American people, and will not forget the help we get from Americans in WWII.

Stephan:

Nationalism and patriotism are basically the same thing, only one word is viewed negatively, the other positively. In essence we need to view what the substance of nationalism is (ethnic vs. civic) and whether it is oriented for or against something (constructive or destructive). Nationalist behavior is always about group (or mob) behavior because the individual subjugates him or herself to the nation. Sometimes this can help build a good country, in other cases it can also lead to blind following. Hitler was a master, but others today use nationalism/patriotism to make war, suppress minorities or opposition, etc.

Stephan:

Nationalism and patriotism is basically the same thing, only one word is viewed negatively, the other positively. In essence we need to view what the substance of nationalism is (ethnic vs. civic) and whether it is oriented for or against something (constructive or destructive). Nationalist behavior is always about group (or mob) behavior because the individual subjugates him or herself to the nation. Sometimes this can help build a good country, in other cases it can also lead to blind following. Hitler was a master, but others today use nationalism/patriotism to make war, suppress minorities or opposition, etc.

laftodeath:

I,m afraid that you maybe have some misconcept about the issue you referred to Nanjing in 1988.

Some african students tried to bring several prostitutes into their domitory, however, they wered stoped by campus guard cus it is not permitable. maybe it is also forbiden to bring prostitutes in US campus? i don't know. and these african students kicked the guard and threaten him with knives, and then chinese students witnessing surroud them and ask police to get rid of it. Unfortunately, the police did not punish those african students, and then what you see happend.

plz tell a whole story, do not play biased report,just like CNN

Confucian Redneck:

@KT

I'm curious as to how your reach the conclusion as to how ABCs would be against the CCP. For me, it appears that the large majority of ABCs, both young and old, don't really outright state their opinion, especially on politics. Because of the diversity of the ABC community, which includes those born in the US, and those that emigrated from the Mainland, HK, Taiwan, and Singapore.

I see no conflict in that I view myself as an American of Chinese descent, but apparently with emotions high, there seem to be some Chinese that are simply hurling a more nationally charged version of calling others "bananas".

Mervyn:

This is the one of the worst misleading articles I have ever read in a while.

We name our conducts as "Patriotism" while lable everyone else "Militant nationalism".

Get over yourself. What goes around, comes around.

_kt_:

runsinghappy wrote:
"hey,kt
automomy doesn't mean independent."

Isn't that obvious? I'll paste in what I wrote before.

...what do you have against the Dalai Lama? His stated position is that he is willing to settle for autonomy rather than go all out for independence. He supports the Beijing Olympics and opposes calls for boycotts. He tries to restrain the young militants who want to march into Tibet. This is a reasonable guy that you can negotiate with.

And with that, goodnight.

You out of context, ignoring history!:

You out of context, ignoring history! Without any significance, is no more than meet your Yiyin!

_kt_:

jian wang:"_KT_, do you know how many years had China been existing before "ABC, BBC , CNN" foundation……
your logic is really ridiculous."

Sorry, but I think you have me confused with someone else. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ann Lau, nice post. If you are Chinese, you are a true patriot for trying to improve her country.

(Sorry, I forgot to type in my name the first time I posted.)

runsinghappy:

hey,kt
automomy doesn't mean independent. every thing has its degree and limit, if the border has been exceeded,the essence will be changed. Tibet people has more priorities compared with other people 55 minorities. and tibetan call for unity. Much work our centre gov has been done for developing this remote areas. I persuade u to know the painful tibeten history.if u read them ,u will know the truth. don't tell me u want to be fooled

_kt_:

Hi Anti-Bigotry,

Nice talking with you. Now to address your post:

"The excerpt from Pomfret's story is clearly sarcastic and patronizing. A quick perusal of his other articles suggests that's his writing style. Do you not know anything about writing skills?"

You are proving Pomfret's point. This is what he means by "thin-skinned." Hang out in the blogosphere long enough and you'll get used to it. In a few months, you won't even notice anymore. You may not realize it, but the tone he adopts helps in his effort to diffuse Americans' disgust toward Chinese protesters and to ask for more understanding and tolerance.

"...yet nobody in the US is even remotely upset by all the anything-but-peaceful shows put up by anti-China groups against the Olympic torch in recent weeks?"

Personally, even though I think China should give Tibet autonomy, I think messing with the Olympic torch or its carrier is really gauche. I live in the US. If there are others out there, give me a shout-out. Of course, I think arresting someone for having a picture of a religious leader on the wall is much, much worse.

"Next, you really don't know about CIA's special interest in Tibet? Who do you think funded and trained Dalai's "clique" for their 1959 "uprising"?"

1959 was a long time ago. China and the US do massive business together now. The Cold War is over, and China isn't even really communist anymore, anyway. I suspect that the CIA's focus in China is more on trying to figure out what the CCP's regional strategic and military plans are and on who they're selling weapons to. They are undoubtedly trying to stop Chinese spies in the US. Tibet, I suspect, is not high on their list of priorities. If you think about it, it is in the US's best interest strategically for China to remain stable, even if that means that Beijing continues to control people like the Tibetans and Uighurs. The CIA is all about realpolitik. These days, the CIA has bigger fish to fry in the Middle-East.

"As for Bush, who do you think awarded Dalai his medal (or some sort of civilian honor) last year at the White House? Tibet and Dalai is one of the biggest political cards played against China by the west."

For Bush, it's a card that costs nothing to play. The US government response is probably the weakest in the West. Anyway, what do you have against the Dalai Lama? His stated position is that he is willing to settle for autonomy rather than go all out for independence. He supports the Beijing Olympics and opposes calls for boycotts. He tries to restrain the young militants who want to march into Tibet. This is a reasonable guy that you can negotiate with.

"A lot of the things you cite against CCP and China are those from two generations ago."

I brought up the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution in response to your comment "Also, for your information, Japan recovered economically after WWII because the US dumped a gazillion tons of aid on them. South Korea built up its economy during a military dictatorship in the 1960's and 70's (way before it had any meaningful democracy)." Both Chinese events occurred after the beginning of Japan's phenomenal rise in the world, so it's not so long ago, in this context. This came up because people were boasting about the current rate of economic growth in China. I responded that the growth rate seems large because the baseline was so low. Concerning economic growth since the end of WWII and the Korean War, the CCP has little to boast of compared to Japan and South Korea. The CCP is not the great savior of the Chinese people. On the contrary, the current economic growth comes from the CCP getting out of the way of regular Chinese.

"I don't know who gave you the authority to decide what the proper subject is here,"

The same people who gave the CCP the authority to decide how Tibetans should practice their religion. No one gave me that authority. I just took it. :-) Do you feel put upon over this little thing? Imagine how Tibetans feel.

"...but it's not Tibet per se. The original Pomfret article is about nationalism in China."

True enough, but nationalism in China in reference to the current debate about Tibet.

"Incidentally, they deleted one of my earlier critical comments regarding Pomfret, even though they tolerated many postings calling other posters commie agents."

Try again.

"Speaking of which, KT, why are you so sensitve about the term "Dalai Clique"?"

I am not sensitive about it at all. I am honored that anyone would associate me, someone whose sacrifice for Tibetan freedom consists of posting comments to a blog, with him. But the term "Dalai Clique," along with the old, "Capitalist Roaders" and "Running Dogs of Imperialism," are inextricably linked to party apparatchiks, i.e. "communist shills," because no one else uses them. To Western ears, they are really funny. Maybe you didn't understand this, but this is the context in which I used "communist shills." I never used it to describe those who disagree with me, just those who use ridiculous-sounding terms like, "Dalai Clique."


Anonymous:

I dont't think those examples u refer to have any relation to this topic. who can say their country has no corruption? why pick so many negative examples ,why don't u put many more positive examples here? because all u heard of r those negative aspects.Chinese people clearly know the situations and many flaws in our system, it needs to be improved,and it is improving,no need u to interfere. Our country has made a great progress comparing with the past 20 years. u dare to say ur country has no negative aspects?Why u find those excuse for interferent us. It's none of ur business. imagine 1.3 billion people come to ur land,can u feed then all?

jian wang:

I'm not a nationalist, i'm working in a German company, so i usually come here to improve my reading ability. but i found so many US people here know little about China and Chinese.

_KT_, do you know how many years had China been existing before "ABC, BBC , CNN" foundation……
your logic is really ridiculous.

MARTIN is the one who really know Chinese very well.
Chinese people very much respect their central Gov.and are fully convinced that the central Gov. are working hardly for the whole country(which can be proven by the life level improving during past 20 years)

Corruption usually happens in current Chinese society, but that happens between the central Gov. and common people. it happens in the mid-level administration organization, we also hate it very much.

In fact we thought that you are protesting the whole Chinese people when you protest our central Gov.


Chinese people are very charitable and virtuous, both to our central Gov. and you(people outside China). We are willing to give more time to our Gov. to lead us to a better life and give you more time to understand Chinese well.

We are now fostering 1/4 population of the whole world and the whole world are living under the same sky.

Chinse culture is really wonderful, we welcome you come to China and know more about this country and then give your comments here.

Ann Lau:

Echoing the Voice of the Voiceless
By Ann Lau
When Empress Dowager paid indemnity to the eight nations, the U.S. used it for the first Chinese students to study abroad.
When Sun Yat Sen came to the U.S. as a fugitive, the U.S. opened her arms.
When China was invaded by Imperial Japan, the U.S. sent in the Flying Tigers.
When China put up the bamboo curtain, the Chinese risked the shark infected sea to escape to Hong Kong and then to the west.
When the Dalai Lama called Mao as his Big Brother, it was not enough; religion is the opium of the people.
With Communism, the Chinese suffered the greatest famine in the history of mankind.
Again, the west welcomed those refugees.
When China was facing economic collapse, it was those Chinese who left China who first went back to establish commerce.
When China needed investments, the IMF came to its aid.
With Capitalism, corruption went rampant and the Chinese floating migrants became second class citizens in their own cities.
With a billion people, China has great potential; why is their government afraid of them?
Tell me why blind legal expert Chen Guangcheng was sentenced to jail when he helped villagers to file class action against forced abortion and sterilization?
Tell me why Wu Lihong, a farmer who became an environmentalist, was sentenced to jail when he tried to save Lake Tai?
Tell me why farmer Jiang Jinzhu called on outside China to help when his land and mushroom farm was illegally torn down?
Tell me why Hu Jia was sentenced to three and half years in jail when he wrote an article on the internet?
Tell me why attorney Teng Biao was kidnapped when he tried to help Hu Jia?
Tell me why Baixing's editor-in-chief, Huang Liangtian was fired when he reported too many stories on corruption and official land grabs?
Tell me why Zeng Jinyan is in house arrest with her baby when she only blogged on the environment and AIDS?
Tell me why the petitioners in Beijing crowd around the western press and beg them to listen to their stories?
With their own fellow citizens unjustly treated, where is the outrage?
Tell me what top Chinese intellectuals said in their open letter on the Olympics and why they send their letter to the west?
Tell me what top Chinese intellectuals said in their open letter on the Tibet issue and why they send their letter to the west?
Why do Chinese in China call on the west to highlight their injustice?
Why do Chinese in China want the western press to report on their grievances?
Why do Chinese in China even went in front of the U.S. embassy to bring attention to their plights?
Could it be that their own government is not listening?
The west can turn a blind eye and close their ears to those Chinese people who pleaded for their help just as their own government have done.
There is little the west can do except to merely echo the voice of the voiceless.
If we even refuse to do that, then what kind of people are we?

Anonymous:

but u should think it first: what caused this patriotism in China?what provocated Chinese people? What is the initiator? if u'r offended by other's offensive words and smeared intentionally, u will feel happy? more important, the truth has been completely distorted and unreal,what's ur reaction?if u didn't have ur freedom to show anger,what's the "human right"?

A Poem Published by the Washington Post. :


When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet
you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either, But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said,We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer... Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.


Duo-Liang Lin, Ph. D
Professor Emeritus of Physics,
University at Buffalo, State University of New York, Buffalo, New York 14260-1500
Email: LLIN@buffalo.edu

Patriotism is Ugly:

I never felt more frightened then what happened after September 11, 2001. The American flags, the lapel pins, and the "Us Versus Them" mentality. The patriotic fervor of Americans scared me more than Osama bin Laden. Patriotism leads to irrational and emotional responses to certain challenges. Fellow countrymen believe in violent and drastic reactions to any threat to the Republic. As an American and one who celebrates dissent, I found the post 9/11 atmosphere more dictatorial in America.

I see the same thing in China and Tibet today. I hate the fact the ethnicity and national heritage divides people. How can you hate someone based on nationality or ethnicity? I don't understand the vitriol. The ugly patriotism and anti-West hate displayed by Chinese pro-government sympathizers is disturbing. But isn't ALL displays of patriotism truly disgusting? Whether you are American, Chinese, or Tibetan...your demonstration of patriotism divides humanity more than brings harmony. Standing behind a flag just makes you more blind to reality.

If it we didn't have nation-states and if we didn't have religion...the world would be a better place. Enough said.

runsinghappy:

No evidents,no rights talking.
if u haven't been to China ,of course what u r saying are pointless,in other words-----rubbish. Media's duty is to report the truth without much comments.That's all. of course every one have its freedom of showing his opinions,but u all should know one thing: there's no absolute "freedom", so control ur mouth,and be resiponsible to every word u speak out to the public.

In my opinion,it's all about China's interior affairs. and much misunderstandings r coming from the different cultures,ideologies and systems. No system is perfect,so it's no need to compare ours to others. Tolerant the difference,and carry forward the good facts.Mabye it's the right time to let the world know this country---- China.

Yawn:

I never said our media wasn’t slanted…. But we have access to all sorts of views on things, its those that choose not to research like you that cause a lot of misunderstandings.

For the leaders of America based in DC (Washington Post’s hometown FYI) we actually do speak out against slanted news. Much like we speak out about your slanted news. I choose not to bother saying anything about our media when I am addressing your issues because I am not trying to make a point about MY media… But maybe my point would be about YOURS. See my point? Its YOUR JOB to point out our faults which you have done, but you seem to like to pop up all the time and keep on shooting your mouth off. Yes you can do what you want, but at some point you have to think…. What is so wrong in your life that you feel the need to blog on a papers website half-way around the world night after night to spew the same crap? Do you feel like you are going to affect change in the greater Western world? Even you can’t be that retarded….. So I guess it’s just because you have some aggression issues.

My fighting words? LOL Why would we bother getting into physical confrontation when instead, businesses would invest in cheap labor in another part of the world? That would effectively shut down your government and your people will starve unintentionally… Are you aware of what’s happening in N Korea right now? Had they spent the money on better things instead of trying to put the “cart before the horse” and invest in technology instead of social progress, they wouldn’t be in near as bad a shape as they are. That was my point if applied to China… If you stand all alone again. Nothing more. In the mean time, some other 3rd word nation would be abused by our big businesses around the globe…. Unfortunately.

It’s not because we want that to happen, but the world can only put up with so much crap from an amateur country with a big mouth. Even we as America couldn’t stop Anti-China sentiments that expansive around the globe.

Anti-bigotry:

Woo, easy there, YAWN. Them are fighting words there. Pompous but standard lines from American hawks.

If you are so open towards criticism, why did you want to rename French fries to freedom fries and your radio stations boycotted the Dixie Chicks a few years ago? And why some Americans are so offended recently that the Chinese are criticising the western media? Wait, don't tell me, the criticism is "constructive" only if you deem it so...

mtlyorel:

To: Hong Kong Wing Wong

"Why don't you make a cursory reading of Chinese history and then report to us on what you discover, comrade. You closed yourselves off and then proceeded to fight destructive internal wars that left you at the mercy of a small island power. Famine was a regular feature of Chinese existence well into the twentieth century."

Normally I ignore loonies like you who are afraid to even use your real name. Tsk tsk...you really have no idea of Asian history. What makes you think I was referring to modern Chinese history? Mercy of a small island power? What is this - Hawaii?

Famine was a regular feature of European and early American history as well, dear I'm-so=embarrassed-I-can't-use-my-real-name. So you point is totally off topic.

"Cursory reading"...well that just explains volume as to where you got your very limited knowledge of Asian history. My knowledge of history is anything but cursory. Don't project your own deficiencies upon others.

And you apparently agreed to my characterization of you lacking the power of thought by admitting your faulty logic of China being solely responsible for shoddy goods.

And what makes you think I'm 'comrade'.
A bit of self-projecting, don't you think?

I rest my case. Go read a book.

Yawn:

If you don’t think we are used to it... You have a lot to learn about the American public! LOL

Not only are we used to it, we embrace it since it is all part of the betterment of a culture. Its why we have always prevailed against regimes like yours. Much more POWERFULL ones too. Why do you think we are intimidated by China? ROFL You could be a bad memory again in 20 years if the World deemed it. Your 1.4b population would be reset to the remaining privileged 300m core Chinese and then you will spend the next 1000 years re-building again. Do you want that?

Without accepting constructive criticism you only close yourself off from the world more.

You may not like it, but its how things work in the modern world. The one your people are trying to engage with. If you don’t like it, there isn’t much you can do about it so there is no point in getting pissed about it.

What you take as interfering in your internal matters is your problem. When you open up your country to the world, you also open yourself up to criticisms. If you don’t accept it, there are many other countries that would be willing to take China's place.

facts:

Pro-tibet activists were not peaceful in Paris,London and I suspect that they were peaceful in Lahsa,China as witnessed by western tourists there. The worst account by tibetan government-in-exile was 150 dead as against 22 deaths by Chinese government. I think it is much better than Yugoslavian disintegration and russian-chechniya wars which cost much more lives.
Besides Dalai Lama himself does not support "Free Tibet" or tibetan independence, why do western supporters are so eager to bypass him to set up an independent Tibet?

dreamer:

I think Ken 2's comments are most interesting: He sounds EXACTLY like the Japanese militarists/ethnocentric nationalists who invaded China in the 1930's, and justified that action by claims some kind of "unique mind/spirit/heart" that only Japanese could understand.

Judging from the sub-imperialism practiced by the CCP in Tibet and Xingjiang, the present Chinese government has learned its lessons well from the earlier Western/Japanese imperial methods, regardless of what the apologists might claim.

Kung fuzi and Laozi would cry if they saw what has become of China: a politically corrupt and environmentally foul cesspit where the "capitalist roaders" make a profit at everyone else's cost.

JC:

Further thoughts:
1) Mr. Pomfret, I think you understand China & its culture very well, despite what some others said. I think that we (both as Chinese & American) need to be reminded of the level-headedness, and not just from one side of the issue. We need people like you to bridge the differences. Pls keep up the good work!
2) One article I've read, explains exactly how the writer and many of us overseas Chinese felt:"...The protesters, he wrote, "ought to be ashamed of themselves. … This one strikes and wounds deep. … China disputes the West's self-given authority to draw a single, objective, moral line that China must toe...What other government, in 60 years, can say it's done even half as much for 1.3 billion people as the Chinese Communist Party? Economic improvement is key. When the outlines are done, when the house is built, then you put away the broad brush for the finer one, then you worry about the wallpaper and light fixtures."
3) I think this event of protesting the torch relay & counter protesting, is a watershed event, at least in my 30 yrs of stay in the West. It provides a lighting rod for overseas Chinese to unite, to speak up for unfairness & act! The western media, by acting the way as they did, totally lose the credibility earned in the Chinese community. Also, I guarantee you the next time something similar to 1989 Tianman sq incident happens again, CCP better watch out.
4) There are a lot of negatives coming out form the debates. It's ironic that we Chinese seem to forget that Americans helped the most during the looting & burning of the Imperial palace of the 8 nations, during the Japanese invasions...etc. Why & how we view each other in such negative ways now? Maybe as I see it, the rebirth of the Chinese-ness,"Chung Hwa" - including all overseas Chinese, but distinguishable for the China as ruled by the CCP, but only identifiable now by the "China" brand, is making us all proud and want to defend it at all cost.
5) One writer at the "Globalist" might explain the above best by stating"...A rejuvenation of Chinese civilization along the lines of the Tang Dynasty would be a blessing for the world. This revived Chinese civilization would be open and cosmopolitan, not closed and insular. Indeed, a confident Chinese civilization may prove even more open and cosmopolitan than the insecure societies of the West..."

Anonymous:

Yawn wrote: "Welcome to the global condemnation club. Get used to it."

Only if the people of USA can learn to get used to it first. Can you say "Freedom Fries" or "Dixie Chicks"?

Anti-bigotry:

KT, I cannot decide whether you are truely unsophisticated, as you claim, or simply refuse to see the obvious (for your own advantage). The excerpt from Pomfret's story is clearly sarcastic and patronizing. A quick perusal of his other articles suggests that's his writing style. Do you not know anything about writing skills?

And following your lead, "some are disturbed or amused by deviation from these norms by Chinese citizens in the US", yet nobody in the US is even remotely upset by all the anything-but-peaceful shows put up by anti-China groups against the Olympic torch in recent weeks?

Next, you really don't know about CIA's special interest in Tibet? Who do you think funded and trained Dalai's "clique" for their 1959 "uprising"? Haven't you read or at least heard of the book "CIA's Secret War in Tibet" by Conboy and Morrison? It's on the University Press of Kansas website. If you don't believe it, I guess you'd also deny CIA's role in the Bay of Pigs and all the assassination attempts on Castro then.

As for Bush, who do you think awarded Dalai his medal (or some sort of civilian honor) last year at the White House? Tibet and Dalai is one of the biggest political cards played against China by the west.

A lot of the things you cite against CCP and China are those from two generations ago. It's like bringing up the issues of slavery and segregation when talking about the current US invasion of Iraq. True, there might be some remote relevance among them, but I doubt you will admit it.

I don't know who gave you the authority to decide what the proper subject is here, but it's not Tibet per se. The original Pomfret article is about nationalism in China. Incidentally, they deleted one of my earlier critical comments regarding Pomfret, even though they tolerated many postings calling other posters commie agents. Speaking of which, KT, why are you so sensitve about the term "Dalai Clique"? Have some sense of humor, especially if I let you call me a "communist shill".

Yawn:

Perhaps instead of a custodian you need some real leaders to obtain the social progress your people deserve in this day and age.

It’s a government that is long since dead. The remaining few left over from the old days are trying hard to maintain their control, but eventually someone in that country will take charge and lead your people into the light.

You can’t miss what you never had, so we understand why the Chinese consider our reactions out of place. Eventually though, the people will turn and bite the hand that controls them, just before setting out on a new path of their own.

Welcome to the global condemnation club. Get used to it.

ken2:

Your comment reflects how little you know about the Chinese. However, this is understandable because you are not a Chinese thus does not have this 'Chinese soul' in you.

CCP is just a 'custodian of the core interest of all the Chinese' in the land called China. If they failed to safeguard this 'core interest', they will be overthrown just like any other dynasties before them for the past thousands of years.

In case if you still dont know, any Chinese will come to the defense of their 'custodian'(ie. now is the CCP), irrespective of whatsoever reasons and at whatever costs, if the 'core interest of the Chinese' has been threaten especially by outsiders. The Chinese are a very open minded race but there are some 'core interest of the Chinese' that are NOT NEGOTIABLE. Unfortunately, some outsider (non-Chinese) are trying to change this.

What is the 'core interest of the Chinese' ? For a westerner like you, just to learn of China's 5,000 year old civilization is not enough. You have to live and behave a like a Chinese and subsequently attain a 'Chinese soul' in you than only you will understand.


Anonymous:

Sun Yat-Sen was the Founding Father of Modern China who ended dynastic rule and preceded Mao, the Founding Father of Communist China.

Mr Sun was a friend of the West, who promoted nationalism, but also envisioned democracy for the China. Unfortunately he died soon after, and his own political party KMT became authoritarian, and subsequently lost the civil war to the communists.

Nathan:

When Tibet wants freedom from China or Taiwan wants to separate, China reacts in a manner that is truly scary. The suppression of Tibetan self-rule by the Chinese is a sore point in its own future. China is a big country and Tibet only wants self-rule. Many chinese students in this country are vehement about suppressing Tibetans who, according to them, are traitors. Even that young lady, Grace, was subject to endless abuse in the Washington Post blogs. The Chinese actually have evrything to gain by allowing freedom of people like Tibetans, who want to preserve their traditions and relgion without intereference from the Chinese. This is in my judgment the most practical way to enhance the Tibetan attachment to China. Tibet will always be a part of China because of the many benefits they get from their Chinese nationhood. But to ask them to sacrifice their traditions and relgious faith to show their pro-China patriotism is the ultimate subjugation, smacking of colonialism. That is why they are resisting. They will get a lot more stake in their relationship with China when they enjoy self-rule, because of their economic dependence. To treat them as prisoners in their own land is the ultimate punishment China is imposing on them. That is why the world should keep the pressure on China. It doesn't matter whether their nationalism also includes their dislike of their government. An ultra-nationalist government may even be worse than their current rulers. It is their mindset that needs a great change.

CJ:

Jun, there are 56,000+ characters and it takes 2-3000 to read a newspaper. There are also 2 totally separate language groups: Cantonese and Mandarin. In addition, there is also two systems of writing: traditional and simplified. You do bring up a good point in that most Chinese can speak a dialect plus Putonghua (mandarin to outsiders), it is generally possible for Mandarin speakers to communicate. This is to the credit of the post-1949 government's efforts to unify the country; albeit as a by-product of the requirement to rule more than 1 billion people.

My point is that from the outside China (the PRC) is viewed as a monolithic element. It really isn't. Furthermore, because China is so diverse and has been fragmented for most of its history (yes, there are few periods of actual centralized control) there is little true nationalism.

From_WP:

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to our open markets.
When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and took what you wanted.
When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet
you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
When we embrace Capitalism, you ridicule us for being Capitalist.
When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debt.
When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating
human rights.
When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed- xenophobics.
Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.
We don't hate you either,
But, do you understand us?
Of course we do, you said,
We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...
What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer...
Because you only get so many chances.
Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

jun:

_kt_,

Hu Jintao isn't regarded as hardliner, neither the opposite.
The issue of Tibet is way low in priority compared to other ciritical economical, political and social issues. In my personal experience, Han and Tibents get along pretty well.

jun:

Cj, There are 8 main dialects of chinese, each of which may have some sub-dialects totally understandable by other sub-dialects speakers.

Most important, almost everyone can speak a dialect and Mandarin like me. The chinese language is not alphabetic but based on 3000 some images known as ZI. People wiht different dialects can read same articles in chinese. My point is if chinese language were alphabetic, then china would be broken into many nations like Europe. The uniqueness of chinese language brings all peoples together.

There is patriotism, or nationalism you'd like to call, among chinese people.

0seag0:

if you think people are brain-washed, question yourself that if you were brain washed?

Have American been brain washed by McCarthyism? Has Bush brain washed American for WMD?

You think you know something, you better think again.
By the way, most of Chinese hate CCP, you probably don't know about.

Hong Kong Wing Wong:

" 1. Your total lack of knowledge of history is laughable. China has survived over thousands of years with its doors closed.

2. So if Western industry sets up factories and assembly plants in China, who is untimately responsible for the lack of quality controls that constitute 'products poorly made'?

Think before you write, unless you are incapable of doing so... mtlyorel"

Why don't you make a cursory reading of Chinese history and then report to us on what you discover, comrade. You closed yourselves off and then proceeded to fight destructive internal wars that left you at the mercy of a small island power. Famine was a regular feature of Chinese existence well into the twentieth century.

Since you have trouble comprehending what you read let me restate this point so that even an idiot like you can understand: I do not buy your shiiite products.

_kt_:

CJ, excellent description of the diversity within the area controlled by the PRC, one source of the great CCP fear of disintegration and chaos. I only have a problem with, "Bottom line, nationalism in China doesn't truly exist because the Chinese nation doesn't truly exist." How many Han Chinese would agree with that statement? I bet a lot of Uighurs wish it were true.

simplesimon33:

China is and will continue to be a Communist Party dictatorship in spite of hopes generated by Western governments and news media that China will be forced to change once the contacts between Chinese people and Western Societies increased. It was more of a wishful thinking on the part of western governments and news media rather than any inkling of any change demonstrated by Communist government of China. Communist China is nothing but a reincarnation of Nazi Germany. It remains to be seen as to how much more repression has to occur in China before Western governments and news media finally come to realize that Communist party dictatorship in China is no different or no better than that in former Soviet Union.

_kt_:

Yes, back to Tibet. No one seems to talk about how President Hu Jintao used to be Party Chief there in the late '80s. Wasn't he promoted by the CCP for his hard-line control of Tibet? How does this affect current policy? I don't know much about this. Could someone with more information weigh in?

CJ:

Both the author and various commentators generalize to the detriment of the public understanding. The population of the PRC is about 1.5 billion. A 'majority' of Chinese is an inconceivable myth. China is many different countries with many different nationalities; the truth is that the Chinese Empire is alive and well as perpetuated by the CCP. Is Tibet part of China? Is Xinjiang, the Muslim west? Is Manchuria? Is Taiwan? Is Inner Mongolia? No! Each of these entities did come under the influence of imperial China at various points in the past (and also China came under the influence and rule of the Mongolians and Manchurians) but they retain their unique language, religion, and culture. It is a fact that 98% of PRC citizens are Han Chinese; however, there are more than 450 dialects of 'Mandarin'. There are north-south, east-west, and Han-minority divides. Bottom line, nationalism in China doesn't truly exist because the Chinese nation doesn't truly exist. To paraphrase Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations, "China is a civilization pretending to be a country." For any potential critics, I've been living in China for 4 years, earned a master's from Beijing University, and speak Mandarin (Putonghua) fluently. I'm also an American.

laozi:

u know nothing about China.yes, u's here in china. but u dont' understand them.
i can see bbc and cnn here in nanjing. but what bbc/cnn did made me sick! especially Cafferty, he acted like a wang 8 dan!

_kt_:

Martin Mellish:
"So I don't think that the citizens of the Mainland are 'brainwashed' into patriotism, except perhaps insofar as Americans are 'brainwashed' to believe in free speech, representative democracy etc."

Oh, I think many people in both the US and the PRC have a similar silly rah-rah mentality of "We are the greatest" that we're ingrained with while growing up. I have no problem with national pride as long as the attitude does not cross borders.

Why No Press?:

_KT_:

I think you were too generous with your grade of a C. I think they are barely scraping a solid D across the board and only going downwards as their government keeps trying to poke us in the eye ;)

As for Tibet, since that was the subject I think…. I can only offer my concern that no foreigners have been allowed into the region for a long while. With all the reports of large convoys of PLA soldiers (or the new “police”… whatever they call them) heading into the region, I can only wonder what kind of ethnic cleansing…. Errrr I mean “re-education” is currently going on.

They have dressed up soldiers in monks robes before, what’s to stop them from replacing an entire people with these same imposters? What a coup just in time for the Olympics don’t you think? Journalists would be greeted by “monks” who have been properly replaced or “re-educated” and told of the glorious things the government has done for them and their people.

As for the history of the region… I am not afraid to say it… I don’t care other than potentially losing a sub-culture of the overall Chinese region due to the short-sightedness of a few that manipulates the many.

If Tibet is truly part of China as they claim, then by default they are Chinese citizens and should be allowed to live how they want…. After all, isn’t that what all Chinese people report is allowed in China?

Martin Mellish:

VioLeaf - I am glad that you agree that I am pretty accurate in my assessment of Mainland Chinese attitudes to their government. However, I don't see how they could be 'brainwashed'. My evidence is that I have visited China 3 times - in 1996, 2003, and 2006.

In 1996, there was more 'political education' and less perceived freedom of expression, yet people were more critical of the government. People took their time to open up to me (the days when the Gong An Ju's spies were everywhere were not so far distant) but when they did, they were not shy about their criticisms (mainly concentrate among those who had lost their 'iron rice bowl' and not found a place in the new economy). I'd estimate the Govt's popularity at that time at an approximately Western level of 40-50%.

In 2003 and 2006, people were not shy about talking politics at all and would do so openly without a moment's hesitation. I spoke to many people in different walks of life, and many of them would spontaneously express their pride in their country and their government without even being asked. Those in rural areas would often express impatience that the prosperity of the urban areas had not reached them yet, but were still very excited about that prosperity. People seemed well-informed and to have good objective reasons to be proud. I'd estimate the popularity of the central government at a stratospheric 80%.

So I don't think that the citizens of the Mainland are 'brainwashed' into patriotism, except perhaps insofar as Americans are 'brainwashed' to believe in free speech, representative democracy etc. It's part of their national ethos and has good rational supports: it doesn't have to be drummed into them.

_kt_:

To Please think about these facts:

Using rhetoric like yours is like wearing a chicken suit to a political debate. No one is going to take you seriously. The best thing you can do for your cause is to stop posting.

_kt_:

Just for fun, allow me to respond to "Anti-bigotry."

"Mr. KT, read this excerpt by Pomfret:"
"First, a healthy percentage of China's nationalists are basically patriots. (See what a difference a word makes?)"

This is a pro-Chinese statement.

"Sure, their style is a little bizarre and they are unusually thin-skinned but cut them some slack. China is a new arrival on the global scene; most of these hotheads have never protested before; at the same time they are obsessed with "face" and are quick to take offense at perceived foreign depredations. You would, too, if you received a Communist education with your mother's milk. These people expect a kow-tow or two. Too bad they're not going to get them."

This is also sympathetic toward China. If you were American (and I don't mean white), you would see that he is right. Americans of all ethnic backgrounds have a certain shared culture which includes certain standards of behavior during protests. It may seem like anarchy to you, but there are norms. Some are disturbed or amused by deviation from these norms by Chinese citizens in the US, and Pomfret is coming to their defense. The truth of his statements is backed up by the pro-CCP comments to this article.

"And please stop labeling everyone here disagreeing with you a communist shill. How do we know that you are not a CIA agent or part of the Dalai Clique?"

Do you really think the CIA cares about Tibet? George W. Bush hasn't threatened to boycott even the opening ceremonies of the Summer Olympics. Do you not realize that using the term "Dalai Clique" identifies you as a CCP "shill" just as surely as the term "capitalist roader" used to? I am not associated with either group, but maybe I should take as a compliment the idea that my little unsophisticated posts might be associated with either group. :-)

"Also, for your information, Japan recovered economically after WWII because the US dumped a gazillion tons of aid on them. South Korea built up its economy during a military dictatorship in the 1960's and 70's (way before it had any meaningful democracy)."

My point was to contrast the actual effect of US influence versus PRC influence on third countries in light of constant PRC propaganda about the dangers of Western interference. Let me reiterate: Japan and South Korea vs. North Korea. Where would you rather live? Earlier in that post I had criticized the CCP for boasting about its economic performance given that their percentage gains seem large only because the baseline was so low. In contrast, Japan and South Korea have done much better.

Japan's recovery after WWII depended on their ability to make good decisions and take advantage of the opportunities that presented themselves. There was no Japanese Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution. Japan did not impoverish itself fighting the UN on behalf of North Korea. They benefited greatly from trade with the US while the PRC cast the US as a great enemy. You can credit US aid for Japan's recovery if you want, but I haven't heard anyone say, "I want to buy a Chinese car because of their great reputation for top quality at a reasonable price." Give credit where credit is due. Those guys did great.

South Korea experienced great economic growth during a dictatorship. So what is China's excuse for being so far behind? It's important to remember that the PRC's leadership has not only been dictatorial, but also incompetent. Oppression and incompetence combined in the Great Leap Forward that resulted in 14-43 million deaths. They are more competent these days than they used to be, thank goodness. But improving your grade from an F to a C is nothing to boast of.

And for the record, I have no problem with ethnic Chinese wherever they may live. I like them as much as anyone else. My problem is with the CCP only. So don't try to change the subject. The subject is Tibet.

Morphilius:

alance wrote: "Tibet is a mosquito. Ignore it."

Alance, you aught start thinkin.
Read the following book(if you're capable):

The Snow Lion and The Dragon
China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama
-Melvyn C. Goldstein


"An ant may well destroy a whole dam."

-Chinese Proverb

Reality:

I can be friends with anyone who can be friends with me. I can work with any honest person who will work with me.

We both profit handsomely. We share the risks equally. We agree to a set of rules and abide by them for as long as we work together, with zero attempts to go outside of rules mutually agreed upon with our business partners. When we want to change the rules, we meet together and agree on new, equally beneficial rules of conduct, and then we change. We never suprise our business partners with sudden changes of any kind, and we ALWAYS PAY 100% OF THE AGREED UPON PRICE ON TIME WITHOUT BEING ASKED!

That is called "win-win" in the west.

"Win-Win" isn't a concept that the chinese business people I've worked with can understand, let alone follow. Demand 100% of payment up front before work begins or you'll NEVER get paid. Intellectual property must be guarded at all times for the entire length of a business relationship - even a decades-long relationship is easily ruined by Chinese business people over the flouting intellectual property rights.

Win-Win certainly isn't practiced by the chinese government. In fact they reject it altogether in favor of lowering costs of goods sold at any consequence...Ergo manipulation of the Yuan to keep its value artificially low, and intellectual property theft.

Recent history has shown that SOME chinese business people in a search for lowered cost of goods sold are even willing to poison food, medicine, and fake quality (melamine in wheat to cheat the protein level tests, "over-sulfated chondroitin" in Heparin, lead in toys, lead in fish to increase the sale weight, anti-freeze replacing glycerine in toothpaste and in medicine for children.. and no and on and on and on.)

...And now we take up the cause of the religious freedom of the Tibetan people.

Tibet is NOT a matter that should be overlooked, PRECISELY because you ask us to.

When Monks risk their lives to burst into a room of fake monks sent by the communist government and tell the truth to visiting reporters we KNOW the chinese government is lying.

In the US we accuse our government of alllll sorts of wrong doing, and shame them every single day to keep them in line.

Since Chinese people can't tell the truth to the communist government, or tell the truth about their government to the world without going to prison for a decade, we're HAPPY to do it for them.

We'll continue to do so until the persuit of "face" is exchanged for with "the persuit of excellence." When you replace the persuit of the lowest cost of goods sold with "win-win" you'll find you are actually in persuit of excellence and "face" naturally follows because it has been earned.

By that time Tibetans will not have to fear prison or execution because they decided to practice their religion and hang a picture of their spiritual leader on their wall.

Anti-bigotry:

Mr. KT, read this excerpt by Pomfret:
"First, a healthy percentage of China's nationalists are basically patriots. (See what a difference a word makes?) These include the many thousands of Chinese studying at US campuses who have in recent weeks protested against Tibet, against the Dalai Lama and against people protesting against Tibet. Sure, their style is a little bizarre and they are unusually thin-skinned but cut them some slack. China is a new arrival on the global scene; most of these hotheads have never protested before; at the same time they are obsessed with "face" and are quick to take offense at perceived foreign depredations. You would, too, if you received a Communist education with your mother's milk. These people expect a kow-tow or two. Too bad they're not going to get them."

How is this mere "criticism of CCP atrocities"? Such comments are patronization of Chinese citizens at best, and racially-charged at worst. These commentators (Pomfret and Cafferty alike) need to stop hiding behind the "we are only criticising CCP/Chinese gov't" notion. They are only fooling themselves and the bigots who want to believe them.

And please stop labeling everyone here disagreeing with you a communist shill. How do we know that you are not a CIA agent or part of the Dalai Clique?

Also, for your information, Japan recovered economically after WWII because the US dumped a gazillion tons of aid on them. South Korea built up its economy during a military dictatorship in the 1960's and 70's (way before it had any meaningful democracy).

Bidwell:

I received the following writeup in an email. Don't know where it came from. But I believe this is precisely what Chinese feel all along:

=======================

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.

When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.

When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.

When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.

When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.

When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!

When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.

When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.

When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.

When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.

When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.

When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.

When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.

When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.

When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.

When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.

When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.

When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.

When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.

When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed-xenophobics.

Why do you hate us so much, we asked.

No, you answered, we don't hate you.

We don't hate you either,

But, do you understand us?

Of course we do, you said, We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...

What do you really want from us?

Think hard first, then answer...

Because you only get so many chances.

Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.

We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.

This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

_kt_:

alance wrote: "Tibet is a mosquito. Ignore it."

If by "Ignore" you mean give them autonomy and leave them alone, I totally agree.

alance:

In many many ways the Chinese and the Americans are the same.

They can be friends.
They can be enemies.
They can be competitors.
They can be business partners.

In the movie Tora Tora Tora, the Japanese admiral said, "We have awakened a sleeping giant."

Well today we have two awakened giants.
Why can't they be friends?

Tibet is a mosquito. Ignore it.

_kt_:

Yang wrote, "...mainlanders didn't start coming over to the states until the 80s and having kids, so only just now are there starting to be more children of mainlanders in the states." Chinese started arriving in the US long before the 1980's. In fact, they immigrated in very large numbers long before the 1880's. This seems to have been written by someone profoundly ignorant of the US.

I suspect from their grammar and content that several comments here have been written by one or a few Chinese government officials posting under several different names. If so, here is my message to you. We know that your strategy is to deflect legitimate criticism of CCP atrocities by calling the critics racists. This only infuriates those of us who aren't racists and hardens us in our positions. Furthermore, stop claiming support for your oppression by an entire ethnicity. Most American-born Chinese don't support you, and you sure don't represent them, not to mention the millions of ethnic Chinese in countries all over the world. Finally, you are the aggressor here, so stop playing the victim. It's disgusting. You fought so hard for freedom from Japan. How can you now deny Tibet?

On a side note, I love the Chinese threats of a trade war. Those who make these threats are either profoundly ignorant or brazenly disingenuous. In a trade war, all would suffer, but while the West would be very inconvenienced, the PRC would collapse. Go ahead, PRC. Stop trading with the West. India, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Nigeria, Egypt, Pakistan, Columbia, Honduras, and countless other nations are all waiting to take up the slack. They would benefit greatly.

Furthermore, China should stop bragging about their recent economic improvements. The improvement is large only because earlier CCP policy was so disastrous. Japan was completely destroyed by the end of WWII. South Korea was completely destroyed by the end of the Korean War. Still, the citizens of Japan and South Korea have enjoyed decades of prosperity since then. The CCP should be ashamed of taking so long to get on the right track, and they aren't even close to catching up yet. The rulers of the CCP may no longer be Marxists, but they are still using the same demagoguery they always have; deflecting internal criticism by playing up the threat of Western interference.

Speaking of Western interference... Japan and South Korea came under US influence. North Korea came under Chinese influence. Chinese influence doesn't look so good, does it?

And let's remember that this whole commotion is about the PRC defending its right to empire. Still looking for the "running dogs of imperialism?"

Whose Nationalism?:

We see groups of Chinese waving red China flags.
We see groups of Tibetans waving Tibetan flags.

But we don't see Tibetans waving China flags.
Does'nt that say something?

Robert:

People seem to not get it. This is not really about nationalism, it's about defending truth.

CNN used cropped and fake pictures. Dalai Lama was getting paid by CIA. Does it not alarm you, that the media is being used as the weapon of massive deception, to stir up hatred toward one group of people?

Maxwell:

I think that the world should care a lot what people in China are experiencing and saying and, ultimately, doing. Tumult in China affects everyone and we all have an interest in seeing things go down smoothly there.
The snarky finger-pointing at Chinese patriotic youth is not helpful, nor is it based on defensible ground. After all, the US is hardly a paragon of much of anything these days. No wonder people in the one country where living standards have been rising in real terms steadily for 30 years are fed up with being told how to think and live and order themselves.
At the same time, what gets written in Chinese web forums needs to be shown to the world. The rampant hate speech and naked aggression should be everyone's common concern. As much as one can sympathize with the Chinese position on issues, the slide into hatred should be roundly condemned.

mtlyorel:

TO: Hong Kong Wing Wong:

"No you will not Chang. Without Western industry setting up factories and assembly plants in China you would starve, as you have throughout your long history. I buy products from almost anywhere but China since your products are generally poorly made. You may have to search harder, but they are present."

1. Your total lack of knowledge of history is laughable. China has survived over thousands of years with its doors closed.

2. So if Western industry sets up factories and assembly plants in China, who is untimately responsible for the lack of quality controls that constitute 'products poorly made'?

Think before you write, unless you are incapable of doing so.

I-Don't-think-chinese-are-brave-people!:

I believe that 1.3 billions chinese cannot afford to behave as brave persons like in other nations due to they are dedicated themselves in eating everything than to spend time to waste their time to think about democracy, freedom and all nonesense stuffs such as human rights! becasue those stuffs are not food to eat like rats, skunks snakes, mice in the wild and in the corners of the streets!
And that's why? maybe some experts know more than this?

Hong Kong Wing Wong:

"Vicky Chang:

I burst into laugh when I heard some french and american guys say that they will boycott Chinese goods. The reason is simple: you will die without Chinese food and clothes. We will survive without any French perfume or ipod."

No you will not Chang. Without Western industry setting up factories and assembly plants in China you would starve, as you have throughout your long history. I buy products from almost anywhere but China since your products are generally poorly made. You may have to search harder, but they are present.

mtlyorel:

It's really amusing how all these so-called 'China experts' are foreigners who just happen to have studied a bit about China or who have stayed in China for a bit of time. With that logic, I think anyone who has visited the US or lived in the US can qualify as US experts and appear in the Washington Post as columnists.

Patriotism, nationalism, jingoism, fascism exists in all countries and cultures - it's a human survival trait. When there is a common enemy that threatens a collective group, the group will coalesce and band together as a single entity. Look at the reaction of the Americans after 9-11. The US took a huge step backwards in terms of human rights and constitutional rights in the aftermath of 9-11. And please don't lecture China about human rights or Tibetian independence. The US has its own very sorry historical baggage that it is still trying to deal with. Does slavery ring a bell? Does the systematic genocide of American Indians envoke collective amnesia? Does Gitmo put the government to shame? The list goes on and on.

Sure China is no exception - it's got injustices and historical grievances that is just swept under the rug. But the more the West agitates it, the more it will become obsessed with nationalism and the more these anger will manifest itself in anti-west sentiments. The smart way to deal with China is with engagement and encouraging its citizens to interact with the world outside of China.

The whole protest over Tibet is a cop-out. If these self-righteous pot smoking with too much time on their hands 'activists' really cared about Tibet they should volunteer their time, energy, and money in improving the literacy, health, and social well being of Tibetians rather than trying to raise their own profile through this inutile exercise that only exacerbates the situation in Tibet.

Does anyone really believe that a few camera-ready protests are going to make Tibet independent? If anything they have made the lives of Tibetians worse. I'm sure now all Tibetians are treated as suspected terrorists and ostracised in China. People who write or protest about Tibet don't know scat about Tibetian history. Read before you embarrass yourselves in public forums.

Ern:

I'm not of Chinese ancestry, but I do believe we are experiencing yet have yet another example of the Washington Post writing overly-broad, overly-general articles about complex topics without sufficient expertise or knowledge. I suppose the newspaper's editors believe we all must bow down to the Great Post because 40 years ago, it did something significant by cracking the Watergate Case. Well this isn't 1974, and the topic of China's role in the world and patriotism in that very significant nation is not a fit topic for people that don't know what they're talking about. Actually, if China is worrying other nations, it's actually a tribute to how far the Chinese have come in building their nation from the detritus of 50 years of war and Maoist ideology. As for hyper-patriotism in China, for Western countries that's like the pot calling the kettle black. We in the West have started stupid, silly wars over incidents that were truly trivial: need I mention the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand that began WWI? China's strong role in the world will be determined by economic factors, intelligent diplomacy, trade, and its continuing integration into the world community. It won't be determined by people that don't know what they're talking about, most especially not by newspaper hacks who are just looking to make a buck.

peace4all1:

I fully agree that highly patriotic behavior could become a double-edge sword, just see what is happening to us in US now after patriotic American reelecting Bush for the 2nd term.

But this patriotic behavior is not just limited to Chinese inside China. Those violent attacks on Olympic Torch and smearing campaign by some Western media against Beijing’s handling during the recent riots in Tibet have upset all overseas Chinese. As a person educated through 20 years of anti-communism training in Taiwan and then followed by another 30 years brainwash by Western media, I hope that the following simple question can trigger some serious independent thinking by Western readers.

While most Chinese know that those hard-sell information released from Beijing could be for propaganda purpose, does any Western reader have the conscience to realize that he or she is also being heavily brainwashed by special interest groups via a much effective, sublime propaganda?

For anyone wants to know more facts about Tibet, please read a recent article, “Facing Facts on Tibet” by Louise Blouin MacBain, at Forbes.com, http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/04/10/tibet-china-macbain-oped-cx_lbm_0411tibet.html

Hugo.cn:

sounds about right. what we do now??

how's your exprience being interviewed by cctv9, btw?

Yang:

"I don't think that many American-born Chinese support Beijing's position on Tibet."

haha, you're wrong. many of us do, but it's so unpopular in the states, we just don't say anything. and anyway, mainlanders didn't start coming over to the states until the 80s and having kids, so only just now are there starting to be more children of mainlanders in the states. beijing should be afraid not because the nationalists will overthrow them but because it strains relations with the west. western countries should be just as worried, but of course, they're not because they think they're the authority on human rights.

yang:

chinese patriotism is skin deep? sometimes it's like you understand chinese people, but then sometimes you really don't. it is really not skin deep. it's in the blood with roots in the early years of china's republic in 1911. strength in numbers is like instinct. many of us who grew up in the states are still patriotic to china, in spite of american indoctrination in schools. and because of chinese revolutionary history and just social structure, the chinese are much more inclined to rally and organize than people in the states. part of being patriotic is participating in rallies and yes, criticizing the government. your assessment that chinese are being hot-heads because protesting is so new to them is really ridiculous. in contrast, being patriotic in the united states is about flag pins and god bless america and supporting the troops. for all their free speech, they are so pathetic at organizing and rallying and actually getting anything done like getting out of iraq... do i think that it will amount to a more militarily aggressive china? well, if china were democratic it certainly would, so good thing it is not. but i think americans and europeans should be trying to understand why chinese people are pissed off instead of just dismissing it. the growing misunderstanding and distrust that can result is what's really dangerous. oh well, your blog is still a lot better than what the stuff you see and hear on mainstream media, not that that's hard.

DJ:

To "to DJ"

You wrote: "The protesters are not talking about Chinese welfare, but the Chinese regime's treatment of other minorities, and support of fellow authoritarian regimes."

The only problem is that this whole wave of concern by the protesters and the overall western media was started by looting, burning and killing against han and hui Chinese by the Tibetans.

It's an inconvenient fact, isn't it?

So, what other possible reactions do you expect from us?

BRAMBLES:

I do hope one day people of the west and the east will treat each other as equals. It might take 50 - 100 years but it sure is a good thing.
What we need to do is look ahead instead of quibbing over past history. The world has changed.
With climate change looming large and the increased scarcity of natural resources around the world, mutual rejection/suspicion between the two people in a globalized world could only mean disaster. Ignorance and fear of the other among the people would only empower politicians of the worst kind. We dont have to turn many pages to know that.

Let's reason and survive together.


Anonymous:

What is the problem with all u West-haters and China-haters?

Whay can't we just get along?

Vicky Chang:

I burst into laugh when I heard some french and american guys say that they will boycott Chinese goods. The reason is simple: you will die without Chinese food and clothes. We will survive without any French perfume or ipod.

Joe Bu:

Tide,

Hahaha.... OK! So you're pushing a soft-boycott. You won't buy the crap, but you'll keep your Ipod.

You are powerless because you have become a "consumer" while China has become a "producer". Wasn't always so. What I recommend is that you focus less on trying to affect change with your consumption patterns (which is an inherently powerless position) and start your own computer company...

Just try charging $10,000 for a PC...

tide:


Hi Joe,

I know about that, maybe I should refine my post saying this: I already started to AVOID Chinese production many years ago when being in ASIA had to deal with the overwhelming garbage invading the underdeveloping country where I was working in.
I am fortunately living in EU: a not yet polluted place, where I can chose local production or even EU production.
And yes, the next challenge is to find out how to REPLACE my old PC. I am going to engage in this research and perhaps Good Brands will have to know that there is a big market waiting to award those who change their production policy.

To DJ::

DJ wrote:
"We, the Chinese, know fully well that it is 75% full and all of a sudden everyone else are shouting that it is completely empty."
"Yeah we are mad, and don't you blame it on some irrational nationalism for it!"

Sorry to disagree, but u only speak for yourself.

The protesters are not talking about Chinese welfare, but the Chinese regime's treatment of other minorities, and support of fellow authoritarian regimes.

Joe Bu:

@Tide,

How were you able to make that post? Check your mouse, keyboard, memory chips, hard drive, mother board... etc etc...

We really shouldn't be reading anything on these boards from China boycotters because they should be in the streets yelled through rolled up card-board megaphones... except that cardboard is probably made by a Chinese paper mill.

DJ:

Mr. Pomfret,

I would like to suggest you to do an in-depth examination of the post Tiananmen transformation of views in Chinese living overseas. I emphasis on overseas Chinese because any study of people's changing attitude in China since then would only be attacked via the usual lines of brain washing etc. anyway.

I have seen plenty examples of people who demonstrated there in Beijing in 1989 now supporting the government and the Olympics wholeheartedly. I wasn't one of the protesters in 1989 only because I was already living in the US.

For background, I am in my mid-thirties, which means I have lived more than 2/3 of my conscientious life in the US. Let me further add that I almost never read anything from the official Chinese media because I do not trust them. Oh, I probably should also let you know that the only time I have seen my father crying in front of me was the day after June 4 in 1989.

That said, I look back and thank God (who I do not believe in by the way) for Deng's decision in 1989. China is not Russia. Enough said.

I lived in Princeton back in those days when most of the organizers of the Tiananmen protests showed up. I got to know many of them only to realize they are scum of the earth and share the blame equally for the blood spilled on June 4th.

And China moved forward and made progress in all areas in the two decades since.

I am proud for what China has achieved and is still archiving. Whatever legitimate complaints there are regarding things that need improvements, and I fully concede there are many, China is on the right track. Please remember the truism: if it is not broken, don't fix it.

Let me describe what angers me and the vast majority of Chinese living outside of the mainland regarding the recent events: It's not even a case of debating if a glass is half full or half empty. We, the Chinese, know fully well that it is 75% full and all of a sudden everyone else are shouting that it is completely empty.

Yeah we are mad, and don't you blame it on some irrational nationalism for it!

Sang:

Tibetans need the Dalai Lama to come back, he knows Tibet and its culture. He is only the hope for Tibet. The Chinese leader at present doesn`t know any on Tibet, even some basic language.
Long live Tibet and its culture!!!

tide:

You know what? I am fed up of these nationalists and let aside the CCP, I don't care anymore of making distinctions among the regime and people, as they are blatantly acting to support it and not viceversa as you could aspect from a repressed population.
The BOYCOTT of chinese goods, even just parts of assembled products (we can find out) any "made in China" products, BOYCOTT of every sponsor of the chinese regime will grow as a big tide. The disgusting feelings are growing up even in the low class consumers.

Zhao:

You know what, foreign devil, you forgot one important thing: This is not 1989.

You used examples of how nationalism was skin-deep in the 1980's. That was true. I was there. Chinese, especially young Chinese, did not know what to believe in the 1980's. After the cultural revolution destroyed the education of a generation, there was an ideology vacuum. The CCP admitted that the entire cultural revolution was a disaster and that was the end of communism ideology in China. Ordinary Chinese began to see how much behind China was from the West after China opened up. They also were exposed to the western idea of democracy and freedom. Naturally, they questioned everything.

1989 put an end to that. The Tiananmen massacire ended many dreams in China: It ended the legitimacy of the communism and it trunced the possibility of a westernized democracy. In turn, it returned China to its deep roots of nationalism which is now the donimant ideology in China.

Today's Chinese nationalism is very different than it was back in the 1980's. China is a lot stronger today. The immense pride that Chiense people feel about their achievements in the last 30 years coupled and the slow but sure realization that the West is anti-Chinese rather than anti-communist has given rise to a hardened nationalism. This new Chinese nationalism is popular and very deep. Its power will be felt soon before your life time is over.

If 20th century was defined by the rise and fall of radical idologies such as Nazism and communism, 21st century will be about the rise of nationalism of various countries/races/ethnic groups. Chinese nationalism will be the most important one among all of them.

The heart of all this, of course, is racism. Racism will be on the rise again in the world.

Sims:

It's beyond me that why some people are still obsessed with the "incident" in 1989, and are using the logic they learned from it to address the current issue. Though I am not 100% sure, but the chance of the Chinese government being overthrown was good if the protest at that time was let run out of control. Many politicians in the West regretted that the greatest opportunity had slipped out of their hands and vowed not to miss another one--to demonize the Chinese government for its alleged crackdown in Tiananmen. I was not surprised at all (nor impressed) that after almost 20 years, many people are still using it as their silver bullet to attack the communist regime.

But the logic is off. The hope that the current patriotic frenzy will end up an anti-CCP campaign is nothing if not ludicrous. Unlike the political system in the US and its minions, a steep change in the government means years of chaos and ugly power struggle--a disastrous scene no one, including the Americans, wishes to see. Chinese Students, the leading character in the protest, now enjoys much more freedom and wealth and any time in history. In the past 2 decades, the Communist government did not fail its people, and there is no sign that it will do in the near future. Its achievement in economy is the most-cited success in the west media because they can personally feel the influence of it. But its fledgling democracy, free-thinking young people and social diversity often went unsung in the daily newspaper that keeps depicting Chinese as a group of uneducated vulgarians who are living near the fire and brimstone under the rule of CCP. They couldn't be more wrong.

The protest in and outside China is the outburst of strong disapproval of some biased and ill-will westerners who manipulate and scapegoat Dalai Lama to wage the anti-China sentiment. And as long as the CCP is delivering an A+ performance on the country's economy and giving hope to its people, biding the time for the opportunity of weakening China, like the on in 1989, remains a sad dream for those self-righteous commentators


Tom:

Oversea Chinese almost overwhelmingly show their support for China. It is not because they are not loyal to their adopted countries or they are brainwashed by red commie, but because excessively biased reports, distortion of some of the facts, and one sided report. If you read the report by the western witness in Tibet during the riots, any informed readers will know what was going on. It is a fact the riot and violence were committed by the Tibetans and the majorities of death toll are innocent Han Chinese. To my surprise, Chinese government actually showed great restraint maybe because of Olympic PR by not using excessive force. Chinese government indeed made a big stupid mistake by applying old rigid way of blocking any media access to Tibet after the event. However, media here excessively portrayed the riots as Chinese brutal crackdown. Tibetans protesters also made up lies of killing innocent Tibetans during the riots and all those slogans like “Stop killing”. That is why so many Chinese come out to press for the true stories.

Right now, Dalai Lama is enjoying godly status in the West by instigating the circus shows. The real backslash is that any sympathies or liberal view toward Tibetan autonomy from Chinese are essentially turned into support for hard liner in Chinese government. To be honest, Chinese polices should have opened fire during the riot and should have crackdown more decisively. That could have saved more innocent people.

eastman:

Following is the full text of Daliar's 1951 telegram:

"Chairman Mao of the Central People's Government:

This year the local government of Tibet sent five delegates with full authority headed by Kaloon Ngapoi to Beijing in late April 1951 to conduct peace talks with delegates with full authority appointed by the Central People's Government.

On the basis of friendship, delegates on both sides concluded the Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet on May 23,1951.

The local government of Tibet as well as the Tibetan monks and laymen unanimously support this agreement, and under the leadership of Chairman Mao and the Central People's Government, will actively assist the People's Liberation Army in Tibet to consolidate national defence, drive imperialist influences out of Tibet and safeguard the unification of the territory and the sovereignty of the motherland. I hereby send this cable to inform you of this. “


give China some time:

China will eventually become a democracy. However, China does not rush to convert to democracy now and prematurely. One big lesson China take to heart is the collapse of Soviet Union. Russians are high IQ and very well educated people. Russia has vast resources and has strong science, technology, and industry bases. Yet Russia collapse almost overnight from a superpower after a shock therapy democracy conversion. Russian human development level, in terms of education, health care etc. was at much more developed levels than China is and yet collapsed. That is the course China is determined to avoid. China is following the East Asian model like South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan where democracies came after economies were developed to certain levels. Today China is no longer a communist country, but rather run by one party of development focused technocrats, comprising primarily of high level engineers and scientists. China stress stability, discipline, and economy and market openness over democracy. I think China will become a like Singapore when her per capita GDP approaches $10,000.

Indeed, China is not democratic as developed countries like U.S. Please remember, China is a 3rd world country with 1.3 billion people. To develop at such a large scale, discipline, stability and planning is vital. To be honest, Chinese people do not care about politics and so called human rights that much but care more for improvement of living standard and economical success. Chinese peoples enjoy much more freedom than some media try to convince you. People can go anywhere; can say anything; can BLOG online and travel abroad. Government has issue with you only if you want to organize political anti-government activities that might sabotage stability. China has thousands of protests yearly and most of them are money related. In spite of these, Society moves. Of course, China has issues, poor/rich gap and Tibet among of many of them. But much more positive than negative result from Chinese government development efforts. China is at her most open, most improved, most liberal and most democratic stage in her history since 1949. China is indeed better in human rights than she was in 2001 when Olympic was awarded.

Then why overwhelming one-sided criticism now? It has more to do with fear of perceived China rapid rise and challenge coming with it than the sudden found love with Dalai Lama or West altruism of caring Chinese human right or Chinese democracy. If west really cared that much for an earlier Chinese democracy, west should then do more to elevate Chinese economy toward that level. Of course, that is a delusion! After all these blah, blah, what I am trying to say is Right now, I really think total democracy is a luxury China can not yet afford.

eaetman:

To "A Chinese who knows the true nature of CCP"

When you say "Communists are nothing but a group of savage gangsters", you show your ignorance about what CCP did in last 30 years reform under which an average yearly 10%GDP is achieved and which help 500 millions population out of poverty line.
Do you know any other party which is not "savage gangster" in human history which did even similar thing?
You should try to wake up and to reflect the reason why you hate CCP so much (CCP raped your mom?) while 95% of Chinese have greater right to comment about CCP than you, boy.

eastman:

"most of these hotheads have never protested before"?
You are wrong, as always.
The many students in the West are from Tiananmen generation. They did protest before.
But this time it was against West because they know West may tell truth hundred times before but lied this time about Tibet riot, while CCP may lie all the time, but it told the truth.
In no time have Chinese been united as one with CCP which represent the maltreated Chinese and a rising China, a result of pure distorted report of what happend in Lhasa by the West media, for which CCP must feel grateful.

A Chinese who knows the true nature of CCP:

John, I like your line "You would, too, if you received a Communist education with your mother's milk." very much, except, maybe, the word "education". However, using the word education in place of brainwashing does demonstrate some bitter irony.

By posting his ignorant comments above, that PhD Lin above precisely proved your point.

Communists are nothing but a group of savage gangsters. They really have nothing to offer in education. They have nothing good to offer, period. Anything useful or interesting or beneficial to the human race is foreign to CCP, even though a lot of those good things may have a Chinese origin. To Chinese people and Tibetan people, CCP is a foreign transplant, a useless but extremely expensive poisonous weed, a killer drug that we can do without.


Khampa Girl:

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, I hope Samuel Johnson was right.

wu wei:

Brambles, I don't speak a lick of Chinese, nor have I ever been to China, but your post makes more sense of what's going on in the Chinese national psyche right now than anything else I've seen. Thank you for shining a light!

Way:

Don't be overly worried by the trash written by the author. If he imagined, China will be in trouble arising from the hugh patriotism generated against the West, he has to wait for another 500 years from now (as concured in the past China history). By then America is gone for good - good for the world.

BRAMBLES:

Mr. Pomfret,

I regret to say that this article somehow lacks in substantiation of facts and on the other hand has a little bit too much oversized generalization. I dont think this time the protest is aimed at the government or CCP. Ask a few of your friends in China, you'd understand instantly.
The so-called "nationalisitc fevor" in China should not elicit fear among the west, or within China, just the same.
The "protests" shows nothing but FEAR itself. Call them angry but indeed it's the fear of the unknown that truly drives up the emotions. You are correct that they haven't been expecting recent inccidents before the Olympic: Tibet and protests agaisnt torch relay. They are not used to so much attention from the world.
But what they fear is instability, either caused by a remote but perhaps-possible mini civil war on the Tibet issue, or by perceived foreign powers bent on making trouble to China.
Whether their concern is proportional to the real threat against a peaceful social order most of them nowdays so treasure, can be argued. But in my opinion a direct cause for the flares is lack of information, or lack of acquitance with the west, be it west media or perceived west protests against what they hold dear. They rise up for fear of the worst. But they are not sure whether it's indeed the case. A sheer call for "rational patrioticism" quenches the so-called "fevor". After all, the protestors are mostly young people, without much understanding of the west.
As for the true nature of the protest/boycott against Carrefour, no one knows for sure. There's no evidence suggesting the link between the store and Tibet separatism. WHY is the young people "protesting"? They heard rumors and they fear for the worst.
It might be as easy as some local but failing chain store poping up the rumor behind the scene. The protest is never gonna get bigger.

Sage:

As soon as the torch lands in Japan and the Chinese public gets its first whiff of protest from Japan's version of the panda-punchers, Burgundy and Chevre du Chat will reclaim its ascendancy in China's popular conventional wisdom.

It is far easier to return to the comfort of an antagonistic relationship with an historically aggressive neighbor than to maintain a half-hearted objection to a far-off country that has traditionally been pretty uncontroversial.

violeaf:

Congrats on your contacts of Chinese, Martin Mellish, and I have to say you've got the correct impression of most native Chinese. I'm afraid, however, it takes so much more than being able to speak Chinese and having some Chinese friends to understand why they are so happy about the government. Brainwash seems cliche in this context, but that is what's happening and you probably would never understand how good the CCP is at that.

I am a native Chinese with an open mind; can't say I have perfect grasp of what a most decent patriot should look like, but I know there is a huge gap between a patriot and a government supporter. We do not get to elect the government, so for most of us country=government seems most natural. The logic becomes, to show you are patriotic, you have to agree with the government. I am not saying that's how Chinese actually reason, but what's behind the reality and potentially what the CCP wishes to see.

Anonymous:

“There, nationalism is an anti-government movement using the cloak of patriotism as a flak jacket against government attacks. ”

I dont know where on earth did the author get this, i hope he has proof other than something happened 20 yrs ago.

Anonymous:

One World, One China, One Tibet, One Xinjiang, One Taiwan, One Kosovo, One Chechnya, One Hawaii, One ...

Vicky.H:

I don't quite understand how it's nationalism for the Chinese, and it's all patriotic for the Americans. As a Chinese overseas, I know a lot of people are protesting, depating for the sake of our country and people, which goes far beyond a certain government. The so-called "nationalism" may be well explained by this poem someone sent me via email. Rumor has it that it's published by the Washington Post, but there's no solid proof yet. So here I quote:
A Poem => Published by the Washington Post

When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.

When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.

When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.

When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.

When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your
fair share.

When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet
you screamed, It Was an Invasion!

When tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.

When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.

When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.

When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.

When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.

When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.

When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.

When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.

When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.

When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.

When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.

When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating
human rights.

When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.

When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashedxenophobics.

Why do you hate us so much, we asked. No, you answered, we don't hate you.

We don't hate you either, But, do you understand us? Of course we do, you
said, We have AFP, CNN and BBC's...

What do you really want from us? Think hard first, then answer...

Because you only get so many chances.

Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.

We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.

This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.

************************************
Duo-Liang Lin, Ph. D.
Professor Emeritus of Physics
University at Buffalo
State University of New York

Ji Le:

Wishful Thinking: Why is 1975 a turning point? I understand it's the end of the Cultural Revolution, but in what way, if you are right and from my own experience I tend to think you are, did it create a split between the different generations?

_kt_:

I don't think that many American-born Chinese support Beijing's position on Tibet. In fact, the only person I've ever known with a "Free Tibet" bumper sticker was an American-born Chinese (and this was a good 10 years ago before it became so popular).

As we've seen throughout our history, there is a big difference between immigrants and their American-born children. People who grow up in multi-ethnic countries like ours have a better grasp than most of the difference between ethnicity and nationality. For an ABC, there is nothing remotely disloyal about thinking that the CCP sucks. The ABC's political loyalties are American. The ABC's cultural affiliation or cultural affinity has nothing to do with the Chinese Communist Party, a flash in the pan of Chinese history. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would bet that the ancestors of most ABCs moved to this country long before the CCP came to power. In addition, many immigrant ethnic Chinese move here from Taiwan, Singapore, or other nations, not the PRC. The PRC does not represent all Chinese. Heck, I think the Chinese in Taiwan consider themselves to have preserved Chinese culture much better than the mainland.

Mick:

Good article. Chinese patriotism is skin deep. I have workmates from China who are passionately supporting the Olympic Torch relay and wearing "I love China" badges. But on a shopping trip to buy a gift for a visitor they came away empty handed, complaining everything was inferior "Made in China" stuff.

Anonymous:

Chinese Nationalism is very strong. It is a double-edged sword, but it has its uses. It is so strong that Chinese citizens of other countries still feel loyalty to China, and many help their ancestral home, by repatriating some of their earnings, and some even go to the extreme of spying for the "motherland".

somehow:

To be honest, somehow you are right. it's anti-ism. anti-society, anti-ccp, anti-what-you-saw, anti-what-you-heard...all is a vent.

LOL:


A laughable article.

There never is a Chinese nationalistic movement turned out to be against CCP. But in the past, KMT got burnt by it many times.

You got to set the fact straight first, then talk about theory. If western understanding of China is like this, then you're hopeless.

Wishful thinking:

The author's arguement does make sense to a certain degree. However, to say that all nationalist movements would turn anti-governement is a generalization. The author's Nanjing example is awkward, because there is very little comparison to current events. The nature of the recent protest is similar to that of the may 2005 protest against Japan or the May 4th movement. It is not the kind of protest in June 4th. It targets a specific country and use a specific rally call. (olympic torch attacked, tibetan riot)Surely, the effect will be very limited. Soon things, will return to normal. The CN GOV does take risk by appearing to be overly emotionless to the concerns of the patriots and bussiness friendly toward the foreigners. The author is actually correct about this and the possible legitimacy issue. However, I must point out there is a large section of Chinese society think like the Gov with bussiness and stability trump all attitude. These are nationalistic people who don't attend any demonstrations. The current nationalsit are really young people, students, and some native bussiness competitors. The cut off point between the the two groups are roughly around 1975. Those born after that period had a high tendency to "extreme" nationalistic attitudes.

Martin Mellish:

I don't know what you base your analysis on. I have spent a good deal of time in China, speak good Chinese, and know many Chinese over here. My experience is that they are not only spontaneously very patriotic, in a good way, but also, at least at present, very happy with their government (the unelected Chinese government is much more popular with its citizens than the elected American one - What does that mean? I don't know) and are very appreciative of their managerial skill and of the improved economic and social conditions in China that have resulted. Everyone has their own suggestion about what the government could do better, but these are constructive suggestions on the best way to meet goals on which most Chinese agree. When most Chinese have a beef it is usually with the local governments, which in many cases are still pretty backward and corrupt, rather than with the central government.

anti-bias:

John, your logic is that patriotism in china is nationalism (and certainly nationalism in USA is patriotism). If Chinese people show their patriotism is because they are brainwashed even they are grownup and educated in USA.

Is this a typical distortion?

anti-bias

Jack:

I'm still skeptical of this. If protesters could really turn on a dime and protest the government, shouldn't overseas Chinese be smart enough not to purposely ratchet up the rhetoric? I mean, it just sounds like self-sabotage.

Billy:

I hope you are right John. I hope the mentality turns for the nationalists/patriots and they start protesting their own government. Hearing news of foreigners being harassed physically in China makes me ashamed to be Chinese. But mob mentality is a scary thing.

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