Saul Singer at PostGlobal

Saul Singer

Jerusalem, Israel

Saul Singer, a columnist and former editorial page editor at the Jerusalem Post, is co-author of the forthcoming book, Start-Up Nation: The Story of Israel's Economic Miracle. He has also written for the Wall Street Journal, Commentary, Middle East Quarterly, Moment, the New Leader, and bitterlemons.org (an Israeli/Palestinian e-zine). Before moving to Israel in 1994, he served as an adviser in the United States Congress to the House Foreign Affairs and Senate Banking Committees. He is also on Twitter. Close.

Saul Singer

Jerusalem, Israel

Saul Singer is a columnist and former editorial page editor at the Jerusalem Post. more »

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An Israeli Perspective on Partition

In truth, a "successful" partition in 1947 would not have ended the conflict.

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All Comments (38)

mkacog dfxlr:

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Sabrina:

You forget that out of the British Raj, not only India and Pakistan, but Myanmar and Bangladesh emerged.

Hindu-Muslim relations in South Asia are at the best they've been in a long, long time, so it's unfair of you to draw this tenuous parallel and allege that Israel-Palestine would benefit somehow from imitation..

In both cases, we CAN blame the colonialists powers. Damn those horse-faced Brits for their lack of sensitivity to the demographies of the regions they conquered!

William Glick:

Muslim Hindu Christian Jewish Peace Plan
By William Glick
www.equalsouls.org (The Jewish Hindu Dialouge)
wlg@aol.com

The desire to bring peace to the world is most likely the inner
mood of most of us today. Todo that we need to come to a
common understanding of religious terminology and beliefs.

For example most of us have no idea that the name Allah comes
from the Hebrew letter Alef, our A, in the English alphabet.
This simple point contains enough information for every
Christian, Jew and Hindu to accept Allah as a name of God.

I will explain further, in the "Old Testament" which Jewish
people call the 5 books of Moses, God explains that He is the
beginning to the end. This same idea is expressed in the New
Testament. Revelation 22:13, I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. This
English usage of Alpha is based on the Hebrew Alef. Also in
the Hindu (Vedic) scripture, Bagavad Gita, Krishna says "of
letters I am A."

Has God sent so many messengers each with a different
message? Is He sitting in the Garden of Eden laughing at us?
I think not! We have twisted His message based on our own
material desire, creating our own Hell on Earth.

The objection we find from our Muslim brothers today comes
from the desire to bring the world back to God and His ways.
We find this mood in our Jewish-Christian tradition also.
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of
knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

This lack of discipline, this foolish rush of insane
materialism is what every deeply religious person objects to,
no matter which faith he or she is coming from. We can take
good example from our Amish brothers and Hindu (Vedic) sages.

An error of modern society and religion is to identify the
body as the self. The Bhagavad-Gita clearly explains that we
should see and accept the spiritual essence (the soul) of
each living being as spiritually equal. There it is said,
"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with
equal vision a learned and gentle Brahman, a cow, an
elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcast]."
[Bagavad Gita 5.18]

How does the learned sage see every living entity with equal
vision? He sees the spirit soul within the heart of each of
God's creations. He understands that although living forms
may appear different, those appearances are only the external
coverings of the soul, and that spiritually we are all equal.

A careful analysis shows that all problems result from our
first mistake of identifying the body as the self. If we
identify ourselves by race, religion and ethnic group we will
then suffer or enjoy the results of that identity, but the
fact is we are spiritually equal and the bodily identity that
we accept is both temporary and insignificant compared to our
eternal spiritual identity. We suffer due to birth, disease,
old age and death; we need not identify with the body, which
is being afflicted by these difficulties.

If everyone understood and acted on the level of the soul
rather than the body, the world's problems would practically
cease. Understanding the difference between matter and
spirit, and that God is the controller of all things, is the
essence of knowledge.

It is natural that when we become overwhelmed by
difficulties, we become aware of our dependence on God.
Unfortunately, due to our deep attachment to materialism, we
are drawn to perceive religion in much the same manner, as we
perceive ordinary social activities. That is, we become
attached to identifying with the external or social side of
religion, while we forget its essence-loving service to God.

Our modern use of the word religion, expresses an external
alterable faith, while the Sanskrit word dharma, implies an
internal or essential eternal relationship with God. Our
religion or faith can change but the soul's relationship with
God is eternal. For example, I may claim that I am a
Christian today, but I may adopt the practices of a Hindu or
of a Jew tomorrow. However, whatever faith you my follow, the
essence of that faith is loving service to God.

We must understand that our Muslim brothers and sisters who
have come to understand the true message of Allah accept all
of us as children of God based on this verse from the Koran.
2.62: Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and
the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah
and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward
from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall
they grieve.

We should also understand that as a nation, nay as a human
race if we do not come to follow God's laws and develop our
love for Him and His creation, our future is all too clear.

For Our Lord says: Isaiah 46: I make known the end from the
beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say:
My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Thank You and God's Blessings
William Glick (Isa das) www.equalsouls.org

Martin Hughes:

I see very little reference to faith or to religious teaching in any of this. I'd suggest that if we are all of God's making then there is something in the will and intention of each of us that is good. Therefore no one should be marked from birth, or disqualified in any way that is irrespective of personal misdeeds, as unfit to carry out what (s)he wills or intends, or allowed to do so only with the permission of another more powerful group. Therefore no one should be told 'People like you must always be in the minority here'. Partition may seem like a way to liberate people from permanent minority status, but it is paradoxical in that it always produces minorities intended to be permanent.

How Would hindus survive Secularists..:

And They failed in it. Some hindu boys even publically burnt themselves protesting against secularists favoring in jobs . bill Gatres didnt fail to complain 'about the Indian corruption.there are censors in India and the entire press during Nursinga rao's took cash handouts to maintain barriers in a free country shamelessly on knowledge and freedom of press.

Sher Ahmed Khan:

There is a concept of a Jewish State that was forwarded in Europe but again all kinds of stories wrapped around it. In one of the posts it is described that almost five armies attacked Jews in late 40's and im surprised that nobody spoke for the land-owners and population of Jerusalem and its surrounding areas in Paris?
And no body in Paris could speak the truth even later to Palestinians about their case being a Worldwide dictation from the UNO ,that would lend Jews the entire worlds 'luck' to let that one victim of a World War [Water Loo] a mere escuse for Nazi Party to behave into European American humour unsuccessfully . there a saying about thugs and crooks ' caught jail ,free king!

Basically you should discuss the building of a state and i quote" is there anywhere in the world a smallest country race or a state ,the banner was raised there after conquering the entire world" Nobody lets anyone move in the neigborhood just like that. By 1972 Isreal had taken the world enough to settle itself with Palestinians alone.But both had to see another tacklement called secularists who wanted rule.

There can be no partition of another territory but Isrealis even have the technology to live inside/under the sea ,they have finance and engeneering to build mega towers and Palestinians as their health tells without Zionist photography need more agriculture and gardens. The people can live together ,they always did.the scars of propaganda must be washed away ,Jews are not enemies of Muslim in no history at all ,they have never fought.
Khyber which is quoted in Hadith is bit to be read in fable too. Jews coudnt take much stand in Medina and left the city joyously to let The Holy Prophet command a spiritual town and new corporate economy. Khyber in Pakistan still has older money lenders and story tellers than Hindu's or Jews..
But since one prime role of Isreal is to hold a World Wide Jewish Ingot ,it must leave anybit of territory that was owned by a Palestinian Family or Trader or Agriculture-ist . And also let in Palestinian Police to control Jerusalem.

Sher Ahmed Khan:

There is a concept of a Jewish State that was forwarded in Europe but again all kinds of stories wrapped around it. In one of the posts it is described that almost five armies attacked Jews in late 40's and im surprised that nobody spoke for the land-owners and population of Jerusalem and its surrounding areas in Paris?
And no body in Paris could speak the truth even later to Palestinians about their case being a Worldwide dictation from the UNO ,that would lend Jews the entire worlds 'luck' to let that one victim of a World War [Water Loo] a mere escuse for Nazi Party to behave into European American humour unsuccessfully . there a saying about thugs and crooks ' caught jail ,free king!

Basically you should discuss the building of a state and i quote" is there anywhere in the world a smallest country race or a state ,the banner was raised there after conquering the entire world" Nobody lets anyone move in the neigborhood just like that. By 1972 Isreal had taken the world enough to settle itself with Palestinians alone.But both had to see another tacklement called secularists who wanted rule.

There can be no partition of another territory but Isrealis even have the technology to live inside/under the sea ,they have finance and engeneering to build mega towers and Palestinians as their health tells without Zionist photography need more agriculture and gardens. The people can live together ,they always did.the scars of propaganda must be washed away ,Jews are not enemies of Muslim in no history at all ,they have never fought.
Khyber which is quoted in Hadith is bit to be read in fable too. Jews coudnt take much stand in Medina and left the city joyously to let The Holy Prophet command a spiritual town and new corporate economy. Khyber in Pakistan still has older money lenders and story tellers than Hindu's or Jews..
But since one prime role of Isreal is to hold a World Wide Jewish Ingot ,it must leave anybit of territory that was owned by a Palestinian Family or Trader or Agriculture-ist . And also let in Palestinian Police to control Jerusalem.

ARVIND:

I am not a scholar neither am I a journalist but cannot resist answering your interesting query. Its difficult to imagine what would have been and what not if the partition of India and Pakistan hadnt taken place. Considering the circumstances then and now I strongly believe that it was the right decision taken by the political class at that time.
Even 60 years after partition we in India are still faced with communal riots. Riots that happened in Gujarat is the glaring example of what would have happened if the two states hadnt been partitioned.
Some people may hold Mahamtam Gandhi's decision to let those muslims be allowed to stay in India who didnt want to go to Pakistan responsible for current communal situation but the fact is that Indian society is so much divived on the basis religon caste creed that it is entirely possible to say that such volent eventswould have happened even if muslims had been completely thrown out of India.
Yes Hindu Muslim riots wouldnt have been there which is quite obvious as fighs dont happen in vaccum. You need two parties to fight.
Today WhenI look at Pakistan I cant imagine it was once a part of India so different the aims and aspiations of two countries are. India probably would have been in the same situation as pakistan today is if it was a single state.
Look Pakistans north western frontier provinces where there is no rule of law. It has become a hub of Al Qaieda and Talibvan militan activities. Look at the frequent military take overs in that counry, look at the religious fanaticim in that country, I really dont think an unpartitioned India would have survived such negative forces. If not then partition would have happened now or else India would have been another ruined and lawless state like Afghanistan or NWFP in Pakistan.Or else would have been facing more or less the similar situation that Irael and Palestine faces today.

Fred, Bos:

Joe :

Lets approach this a little realistically please. It is the occupied Palestine with 40 % Muslims and 60% Jews and their doing well is entirely due to involuntary economic aids from the American people pouring in there.

Sher Ahmed Khan:

The creation of a Palestinian state is the cornerstone to discover Soveriegnity for Isreal .And Isreal has to take the innitiative too.
Talking of 1947 Partition today reminds of all the margins that were imposed over the two societies that eventually crippled them both.
Pakistan's founder Mr Jinnah had walked out from Indian National Congress although he was most celeberated amongst the youth then. The formation of All Indian Muslim League did not stem anti-hindu but in-actuale anti Secularist [a godless world] Today by the misgiving of UNO's concept of 'free life' the Secularists have empowered themselves way too much. A Nation or country will always be able to live by 'a book' only . today secularist Leaders are biggest losers ,they have no answer to why didnt they reach yugoslavian division ? although they 'Indian secularists'were lent 'trips' like Wars by Regime Leaders from Pakistan.
The fact that Secularist [MahaJin]The great greedy spirit ] are today taking over everything just because they have authority but since they have no control over personal sexuality they apply the physcology and constitutional hegemony over others anddd ok, because the next rows of offices have to return to the real hiers.Or the world remains perplexed .
There is one tale of haste in the partition that is aparte from the margins of secularists and likwise when we debate Turkey we must not mix a Europeanised society in a Nation to be hindering normal Culture and Tradition but instead they repreent the International Society with compulsive spin 'white' behavior .Again it does not effect religions but degrees of attainment and tradition ...

It was in Shimla India that during the round Table conference Mr Jinnah protruded/spread his hankerchief towards Viceroy Mountabatten and announced'put on it whatever is Pakistan. ' thats however today is not the story.the Muslims were to move 6 7 8 [mystic] 9 although Hindus already controlled 4 cash and 5 % ..today both the countries are make even in scalewise at 2 and 3 ...while both gave up football and international atheletics because thec secularists dont even have a half curve but swollen feet.You must remember that Lahore Pakistan and Dehli India were two British Bureacracy's ,even the leaders of public struggle for rule since 1900 didnt know/realise that ...
The time on earth will change with Establishment of Palestinnian state.One narures home all are home .I wish you al best of luck!

Dr Syed Javed Hussain:

www.ambassadorsofislam.com
Without getting into the brass-tacks of the so-called two State solutions of Palestinian problem, the major part of the world is caught in the whirlwind of euphoria over a fast approaching solution, an end of a very bloody, unprincipled,indecent and inhuman conflict of modern day humanity. Is it really so?
Israel and its media machine abroad have successfully created the perception that the two-nation solution is the only solution viable in the present day Middle East. Majority of the world capitals have fallen in line and have given overt and covert support to this idea, which had got first promotional boost from Bush on June 24, 2002 when he had suggested a
two-State solution of Palestine problem. Will Palestine with less than 2200 sq miles area, which is being further, appropriated in the West Bank through more settlements just after the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza Strip and without enough natural resources and reasonable societal infrastructure, be and independent and viable State on its own. The answer is plain No. Actually, with respect to Israel it has never been planned right from the beginning.
To read on please log into www.ambassadorsofislam.com

Pete Murray:

We have heard it all before!

Yet another Israeli perspective written 'in sadness rather than anger'. If only these violent and factious Arabs could be more reasonable....?

Strangely, Mr. Singer in his long and plaintiff apologia completely fails to mention the fact that the land in which the Palestinians would make their state is being incrementally stolen out from under them. This robbery commenced long before the Intifada. It continued under Barak, Peres, Sharon and Olmert, and despite solemn promises made at Oslo. It is ongoing. This week, like most other weeks Palestinian Arabs will find their homes bulldozed, their olive-groves walled-off, they and their families physically excluded from access to health education and welfare infrastructure because they belong to the wrong tribe. They will then have to endure lectures from the likes of Mr. Singer. They will be told that if they were industrious and provident and knuckled under, then their occupiers would prove compassionate and reasonable people. Of course they would. The Israelis would stop allocating the aquefer in the Occupied Territories 10:1 in favour of their settlers, and the same settlers would stop teaching their kids that God had given them the land their Palestinian neighbours have farmed and lived on for millenia.

Mr Singer is in denial. He is blind to the mote in his own eye. He lives in a State that manifestly exists, the state that is the pre-eminent military power in the Middle-East, and the state that is militarity sustained and hugely subsidized by the pre-eminent power on the planet. It is Palestine that does not exist and whose existence is receeding because of the expropriation by his government of the private property and public infrastructure of people who belong to the wrong tribe.

Sadly, Mr. Singer, occupation impoverishes and dislocates the occupied. It also morally dislocates the occupier. Israelis say they will not, on principle, negotiate with democratically elected Palestinians who do not accept as a pre-condition, a two-state solution (this writer's preferred outcome). However, the Knesset has it's own extremists (I presume you will accept the term as 'like for like')who refuse to countenance the existence of an independent Palestine. Do you agree that the likes of Netanyahu and the other rejectionists should be ostracised from participation in settlement talks until they publicly recant?

I fear Mr Singer, you want the land but not the people and that you are merely repeating the same old pretexts for delaying any meaningful talks while your people inexorably steal the basis of any just solution.

If the Israelis were bona fides they could prove their good faith simply by stopping the expropriations, settlement-expansions, the wall where it trespasses on Palestinian property, and the web of separation roads which has 'Bantustanized' the West Bank.

Pete Murray, Hicksville 08/26/07

Suraj:

Saul,
We can see the real peaceful Islam today when they exploded bombs massacring innocent civilians in India and Pakistan test fired a nuclear capable missile to reach India soon.

We need your help in dealing with this cult. You have lots of experience.

SAM:

All chroinc problems in the Middle East being in Lebanon, Afganistan, Iraq or Palestine are generated by one malicious power house named Israel. The unlimited support of the US to Israel from 1948 till now ,and the illegal creation of Israel on the ruins of Palestine, has led to unmatched state of disappointment and despair in the Middle East, which in turn has led to the creation of terrorist groups who are ready to sacrifice their own bodies in a holy war agianst Israel and US interests, not only in the Middle East but all over the world.
What do we expect from a palestinian refugee who has been deprived of all his belongings and thrown out of his country to live in a refugee camp for more than 60 years now.
The war in Iraq is nothing but an Israeli war unfortunately fought with US blood and US taxpayer's money.It is time for the US admin to wake up to the real cause of all problems in the area and to change its foreign policy categorically.

SAM:

All chroinc problems in the Middle East being in Lebanon, Afganistan, Iraq or Palestine are generated by one malicious power house named Israel. The unlimited support of the US to Israel from 1948 till now ,and the illegal creation of Israel on the ruins of Palestine, has led to unmatched state of disappointment and despair in the Middle East, which in turn has led to the creation of terrorist groups who are ready to sacrifice their own bodies in a holy war agianst Israel and US interests, not only in the Middle East but all over the world.
What do we expect from a palestinian refugee who has been deprived of all his belongings and thrown out of his country to live in a refugee camp for more than 60 years now.
The war in Iraq is nothing but an Israeli war unfortunately fought with US blood and US taxpayer's money.It is time for the US admin to wake up to the real cause of all problems in the area and to change its foreign policy categorically.

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada:

Mr. Saul Singer,

Sorry, I made a mistake, but you would have corrected on your own, have you not, given your vast knowledge and world-wise erudition?

The book by Phlip Bobbit is called "Achilles' Shield" not "Achilles' Heel". The reference for Bose's article, which would provide the illumination you ask for is:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/conflicts/india_pakistan/partition_peoples

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada:

Mr. Saul Singer,

I have had the occasion, in another posting under another PostGlobal comment of yours, had the occasion to tel you how disappointed I am with your hypocrisy, which I discovered rather late, having previously lauded a seemingly peace-loving article you had written. The occasion was your warmongering about Iran. And, about Iran, I would advise you to read the VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity) report commented on in an article by Senator George Mc Govern in Truthout.

To come back to partitionings in general and the case of Pakistan in particular on which you seem foolishly to pontificate, I advise you to at least read the article in Open Democracy (Open Democracy.net) by Samanta Bose, the grandson of the elder brother of the iconic Indian freedom fighter Subhas Chandra Bose.

I am assuming that you have had already read, before you put pen to paper on this subject, the prize-winning current affirs volume of William Pfaff "The Wrath of Nations" and the historical/geostrategic study "Achilles Heel" by Philip Bobbit. If you have not, you are not even worth my having taken the trouble to respond to you. It is important to know your subject and the most uptodate analysis pertaininbg thereto before you write in a pontificating tone about the issues surrounding the subject matter.).

Index_on_censorship:

Under Editor ARIE RATT, The J Post was Zionist, but still allowed criticism. Then LIKUD bought it, and the result are articles like Singer's.

Singer may be too young to know, but the 1947 "UN Division Plan" was rejected by the majority of Jews who lived there - some 600.000 , including me! My parents supported the plan, but they belonged to a minority party called MAPAM.

As to what would or could have ended the conflict:
Israel has always refused to attempt that. The only PM who ever tried a compromise of sorts - Yitzhak Rabin - was married by a Jewish Fascist' who graduated from a military Yeshiva.

FURTHER: The Arab World, supports the Mecca Statement - Full PEACE for full withdrawal from the OPTs, the Syrian Golan Heights and the village Ghajar and the Sheba Farms of Lebanon.

Your attempt to blunder well-informed readers of WAPO is doomed to failure. Try the WA-Times...

Index_on_censorship:

Under Editor ARIE RATT, The J Post was Zionist, but still allowed criticism. Then LIKUD bought it, and the result are articles like Singer's.

Singer may be too young to know, but the 1947 "UN Division Plan" was rejected by the majority of Jews who lived there - some 600.000 , including me! My parents supported the plan, but they belonged to a minority party called MAPAM.

As to what would or could have ended the conflict:
Israel has always refused to attempt that. The only PM who ever tried a compromise of sorts - Yitzhak Rabin - was married by a Jewish Fascist' who graduated from a military Yeshiva.

FURTHER: The Arab World, supports the Mecca Statement - Full PEACE for full withdrawal from the OPTs, the Syrian Golan Heights and the village Ghajar and the Sheba Farms of Lebanon.

Your attempt to blunder well-informed readers of WAPO is doomed to failure. Try the WA-Times...

R of DC:

I would have lived like a king. My grandparents owned so much land and businesses. But on the day of India's partition, they were forced to leave everything behind for safety concerns. But, now, we've moved on. Yeah we'll always say that we still want our money and land back, but that is the past, we need to move on. Some OTHER ethnic groups need to LEARN FROM US!

Joe:

Saul;
I can see that Muslims are upset that Israel exists right in the middle of all Muslim lands. They have continously tried to massacre Jews and threatened to wipe it off the map (Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian President....).
I admire your country that despite being surrounded by barbarians, you have a population of more than 30% Muslims living inside Israel.

How many Jews live in Palestine (or other 55 Islamic nations)?

And if someone believes that Israel is the problem for Muslims, they are wrong: it is that not every soul in the world is a Muslim.
I had read that some top Mullah of Palestine had promised Hitler that he (Hitler) will have free access to Jews if he ever got to Palestine. This is way before even the idea of Israel was born.

Are Muslims worse than Nazis?? My opinion:Yes. Reason: Nazis, at the very least, valued their own life.

K. H. von Ernst:

The rationale to take Palestinian land and give it to the Jews is unacceptable.

Anonymous:

Ah what an insightful opinion on the worlds largest democracy and a nuclear power with a closely intwined complex history. Just like the rest of the world, they revolve around Isreal.

Robert James:

You and others talk of the rights of Jews to have a homeland and the 'right of Israel to exist'.

I do not share those views. Israel was created without any real regard for the Arabs who lived in The Palestine. It was imposed by imperialists including the USA and England. PLease don't become neurotic because I have called the USA an imperialist but the fact is this partition was imposed on the Arabs by outsiders. Most of the inhabitants of Israel came from Europe. I think that the holocaust was terrible but the creation of another state, Israel, has also had terrible consequences.

If the Jews have a biblical right to this land and they are entitled to take it does that mean that American Indians also have an equal right to the USA and that it should be vacated by all settlers including their offspring?

Why doesn't the USA give a State or two to Palestinian Arabs. Why don't JEws who believe in Zionism leave the USA and hand over the keys to their apartments to American Indians?

Israel is a terrible and cruel neighbour and it has used the US to impose itself on the Palestinians. Israel treats them cruelly on the basis that when the Palestinians learn to accept Israel on Israel's terms that their territory will be turned from a ghetto/gulag into a state.

This is not good enough. I suspect that the presence of Israel has alienated many Arabs and has contributed to the hostilities that the west now faces with those Moslems who are terrorists.

Shalom

Alex:

Israel has two options: Peace or Apartheid.

The Zionist, Israeli Nationalism and Fanatics, (Nazis was German Nationalism and Fanatics) want Apartheid. If everyone wants peace, why are the Zionist in power?

The real problem stems from the fact that the powerful religious radical groups in Israel (country which exerts the most power in the region) do not benefit from peace. Peace to them only means giving up their Zionist dreams of expanding Israel - reuniting the kingdom of David or Judea. After all, with peace, comes the inability for the Zionist to expand settlement activities in the West Bank.

These Israeli religious radical groups or Zionist have been slowing colonizing the West Bank under the nose of the world despite the illegality of the matter. These colonization activities are nothing short of ethnic cleansing and have been categorized by many human rights groups including B'Tselem as illegal and a crime against humanity.

Little wonder why Sharon furthered the Israeli Apartheid system to oppress the poor innocent Palestinians. After all, if Sharon wanted peace and security for Israel over land theft via ethnic cleansing, he would not be putting Israeli's at risk by erecting Israeli only settlements by killing the local inhabitants and forcing them from the land in which they live. Apartheid is NEVER about security; it is about controlling the land and resources against the will of the local inhabitants.

Regarding peace in the Middle East, James Baker, former US Secretary of State, said it best:
"Israel, when you want peace give us a call!"

Rory:

Good ol' Asim. Who is repeating the propaganda here? I love how we always give Muslims a pass on their myriad land grabs (Spain, Africa, most of the Middle East) but whenever anyone pushes back they are "invaders". I guess the enormous and consistently violent sweep of Islam out of a few grimy cities in Saudi Arabia was just one long, drawn out defensive action by the Religion of Peace. That'll make the Byzantines feel a lot better.

Saul is of course correct that no partition with the Palestinian ever would have worked. The Palestinians, in addition to having repeatedly and consistently shown themselves to be unable to govern their own affairs, always use any respite or land offer as a basis for launching more attacks. Under time-honored Muslim traditions, they sue for peace only to get some breathing space (not an end to the conflict) when at a disadvantage, and constantly attack otherwise. Interestingly, this dynamic is also at play with India's issues with Kashmir and Pakistan.

In short, history has already shown that the best way for Israel to ensure peace is to build walls rather than trust in Palestinian state-building. In either instance the Palestinians and their Arab minders will never accept a peaceful resolution, but at least less pizzerias and weddings are getting car bombed.

give up:

TO SILLY STUFF:
Did you expect anything else? The pro israeli set has pounced on and strangled any reasonable or fruitful discussion on the whole "faith" and "post global" thing...all bragging and funny, history like that above.
It's not surprising, tho, is it? Read other posts other places. It's typical..
But nonetheless disgusting.

R. Dickerson:

I think your central premise is correct. I also think that Isreal's existence has been a tremendous boon to the autocratic Arab regimes in the middle east. These regimes have cynically used Israel's continued existence to distract their own populations from the failures of their own governments to lift their populations out of poverty, to provide services for their people that might help them keep pace with the citizens of western democracies, or to gloss over the fact that their populations have no real say in what their governments do. That being said, the Israeli-Palestinian situation has evolved into one with it's own internal poisonous dynamic that, although cynically used by nieghboring Arab regimes, is nonetheless seperate from them. It boils down to having a population with a higher growth rate but composed of completely disenfranchised, humiliated, and bitterly angry people with no practical control over their daily lives living cheek-to-jowl with an economically (by comparison) privelaged people that have a much lower birth rate. The population dynamics are working against Israel, and the protracted bitterness is working against virtually everyone. In such an environment only bitter hatred and violence can grow. I can't see any way out other than the people and the government of Israel to conspire with the Palestinians, who have essentially no government in any practical sense, to develop a situation on the ground that allows Palestinians to feel that they have some cotrol in their daily lives and some hope that their children will be better off than they themselves are. The current situation will only breed more jihadists who feel their only hope lies in some happier afterlife. I wish you the best of luck finding that illusive compromise with your neighboring populations, but I certainly wouldn't look for much useful help from your neighboring Arab governments.


peter:

Poor Arabs. The Ottoman Empire was partitioned 99.99% for the Arabs and 0.01% for the Jews. This is the injustice that the Arabs have been trying to correct for 90 years. Only 100% will satisfy them. Why everyone panders to their 22 apartheid and racist states in the circumstances is the real question. If there was no oil involved would anyone really care?

Silly stuff:

This is all very silly.
The question is about Pakistan and India and not the Arab-Israeli issue.

Joe:

Saw an article in WaPo about Darfur refugees (Muslims) preferring to settle in Israel (while Sudan is surrounded by many Islamic nations) and their mistreatment by Egyptians.

There are about 40% Muslims living and doing well in Israel. Which one of the 55 Islamic nation has such a large number of minorities?
Sickening cult.

Keenley:

is this the kind of thing the Jerusalem Post readers get every day? That might explain some things, mainly the cluless protestations one sees daily by preseumably young Israeli or American Jewish posters. No sense of reality, their place in thew world, how Israel is regarded, the actions of the Israeli government, etc. The bonkers history cited. Have often wondered.

obscenity:

Is it obscenity above, singer's version of history? Or is it just silly.
The founders of Israel said then, and most say now that all of Palestine is theirs!
And so is JORDAN AND LEBANON AND PARTS OF SYRIA (THE PART THEY DON'T OCCUPY).
To date, while constantly yelling defense, Israel has taken over a solid 40% of the west bank.
While AIPAC perfects it's parasite status on US taxpayer coffers. And Israel creates chaos and
screams and plots to get us to bomb Iran.
Singer might want to contact his compatriot Foxman to ask about late polls...only 17% of the world has a favorable impression of Israel. And are sick of the current status. Finally. Even GWB and Rice are pretending to act.
Singer's column must have some hidden agenda, it's too stupid to be taken seriously otherwise.

Anonymous:

Joe,
U are disonest:who has grabbed all of of Arab historic Palestine?

Asim :

Saul,
But why repeat the recyceled zionist propganda at every turn that is no longer believed by any one including your neo-historians whose published work is well known.
You say five Arab armies invaded "Israel,"? How could Arab armies invade their own homeland? You jews were and still are the invaders.

The so called rag tag Arab armies were any thing but armies:according to US dilpomatic documents of 1947/US Counsel General in Jerusalem, the Jewish terrorist gangas/regular army outnumbered the Arab militia,were highly trained and armed especially by the Britain including the jewish legion which fought with the allies in ww11 to preapre it for invading Palestine immediately after the end of the war.

The Jewish army numbered 127,500 troops vs the Arab rag tag milita which numbered 91,000 troops of poorly trained and poorly armed militia by the British.
At best the Arab militia were third rate force compared to a western trained jewish force fresh from fighting in WW11.

Your so called "war of independence" is a sick joke:what independence?you invade and occupy some one else's land-All of Arab historic Palestine-and ethnically cleanse them and invent a new term, a fallacy called "war of independence," truly laguhable and bizarere idea. And you unahamedly say the Arabs did not accept the partition? of course not:How could any sane human being share his stolen home with a thief and even accept to give him half of it?

And if the evicted and ethnically cleansed homeowner returns after getting tired in filthy refugee camps to his home, you tell him no you refused to accept to give half of it to the thief and thus you lost it. This is really the menatality of the thiefs and mafia.

And whose existance is in danger? The occupier and the invader with the most sophisticated conventional army with a formidable nuclear arsenal?Or the people whose homeland was invaded and occupied for the past 60 years,has no army,no weaposn and no nuclear and of course no state?
Palestine is an occupied Arab Muslim land by a group of invaders-this time Jews-as it was invaded and occupied by the Crusaders (11th-13th century AD) who were ultimately evicted by Arabs; the conflict is strictly political and about the occupation of land and not in any way or shape against the Jews per se or their faith-as the case was with the German occupation of France in WW11 or the French occupation of Algeria 1832-1962;

The Quran rightfully sanctions defensive war against existential threat to any Muslim land or community and against those who evict Muslims from their homeland as is the case with millions of Palestinian refugees scattered in refugee camps who were evicted by Jewish terrorist gangs in 1947/8;

That Israel is armed to the teeth with the most sophisticated arsenal of modern conventional weapons backed by a formidable nuclear arsenal-compared to the dispossessed Palestinians who live under a brutal 60-year old military occupation in a state of Apartheid, starved, imprisoned or killed in their own homeland while the world looks on, in a state of human despair and desperation; with the Palestinians besieged from all directions in a big concentration camp called the West Bank/Gaza with meager or no weapons with which to defend their occupied land and families-resistance to occupation is legitimate and sanctioned by international law and by all religions and creeds;

That Israel systematically kills and murders Palestinians who are essentially made up of civilians-unlike Israel, they have no state and no standing army-and where essentially all Israelis are soldiers-of course with the exception of children-either in the standing regular army or in the reserve who have already completed their military service. Israel has a relatively smaller army with a large reserve standing by as a matter of strategic design;

That "Israel" never ever recognized the existence of the indigenous owners of Palestine-not even the State of Palestine as per UN 181;Golda Meir once said "What Palestinians?"

Israel never implemented a single UN resolution since its anomalous and questionable creation including UN 181 which created it-by devouring large chunks of the would be Palestine state in 1947/8-because the Palestinains did not accept the partition.

Jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah, Shtern and Argun used extreme violence, bombings and massacres to frighten and ethnically cleanse Palestinians and destroyed over five hundred Palestinians villages to prevent their return as per UN 194-which 60 years later Israel still refuses to implement.

No land or resources left whatsoever for a so called Palestinian state: Israel occupied 78%of Arab historic Palestine in 1947/8 and 22% in 1967 (West Bank, Gaza and most importantly Jerusalem which was built by the Canaanite Arabs long before the Jews) AND again Israel annexed-slowly but surely by implanting its cancerous settlements in full day light- over 50% of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem-leaving 10% of original Arab historic Palestine for a Palestinian state ???The illegal Apartheid Wall only adds insult to injury and literally strangles the already suffocated Palestinians.

Clearly Israel is any thing but inclined to peace and its intransigence is well known, it evens rejects the only possible solution: One secular democratic state -like the US-for all Arabs and Jews to replace the racist Apartheid exclusively Jewish militaristic theocracy. A ready list of Israeli excuses is presented at every turn to thwart any peaceful solution while the cancerous settlements devour more Palestinian land.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and others were created in response to the extremely lengthy 60-year old brutal Israeli military occupation-the longest on going occupation in modern history; Hezbollah was created in response to Israeli occupation of Lebanon from 1982 to 2000 when Israel was evicted from Lebanon by Hezballah.

The issue is simple and clear: chronic brutal inhuman Jewish military occupation of all of Arab Palestine and its peopel for sixty years which have and continues to torment Palestinians and drive them to despair has ultimately created martyrdom missions/suicide bombings.Even Ehud Barack, the present Israeli defense minister once said:”If I were a Palestinian, I would be a terrorist.” Of course the Jews employed such tactics of terrorism when they were not even occupied in 1947/8 to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians, against the British mandate-King David Hotel bombing and against the institution that created Israel by assassinating the Count Bernadout in Jerusalem in 1947 and even assassinating their own Jewish PM ytzhak Rabin by Jewish fanatic.

libertarian:

Saul: the data.
Partition (1947): 1 million dead, 12 million displaced.

India post-partition (60 years): Under 20,000 dead in Hindu-Muslim riots/pogroms. 500,000 displaced from Kashmir (Pakistan aided and abetted).

West Pakistan/East Pakistan Partition (1971): 500,000 dead, several million displaced. 200,000 Urdu-speaking "Biharis" still stranded in Bangladesh/Eastern India without Pakistani citizenship.

More data:
West Pakistan (now Paksistan):
In 1947 20% non-Muslim, under 3% in 2007.
East Pakistan (now Bangaldesh):
In 1947 30% non-Muslim, under 10% in 2007.
India (still India):
In 1947 11% Muslim, 13.5% Muslim in 2007.

You be the judge.

Alex:

All conflicts and all politicians - except for a few humanitarians like Jimmy Carter, Shimon Perez - are about power. The whole world revolves around the concept of 'might makes right'. Thus, a person from an oppressor nation or people can use force (impose their will upon) regardless of laws, BUT a person from an oppressed people (or nation) cannot use force.

NEVER in all of human history have an oppressed nationless people been asked to recognize the ‘RIGHT’ of a nation or oppressor to exist. The Bush White House knows this fact yet still derails the peace process by issuing such inflexible demands.

Joe:

Saul,
Whereever Muslims are in majority, that is an Islamic Republic. So if India was undivided, there would have been lot more Muslims and hence an Islamic Republic of India.

Muslims are a land-grabbing and blood-thirsty cult

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